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Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 29823 times)

Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2013, 06:39 »

Now I see :) By the way, since I've already made the picture...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 06:59 by Nick »
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Radagast

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2013, 07:49 »

Nice creativity but somehow I feel this might be a bit too much, in making the game far easier with a shotgun that is. Feels somehow overpowered since at high difficulties you do get to shoot at many enemies at the same time. On the other hand, rockets and other blast weapons practically do "almost" the same thing so I don't know, "maybe" with the right tweaks/stats on the weapon it "could" work.
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #152 on: April 11, 2013, 08:34 »

Nice creativity but somehow I feel this might be a bit too much, in making the game far easier with a shotgun that is. Feels somehow overpowered since at high difficulties you do get to shoot at many enemies at the same time. On the other hand, rockets and other blast weapons practically do "almost" the same thing so I don't know, "maybe" with the right tweaks/stats on the weapon it "could" work.

Yeah. THIS one is a really "green" item.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #153 on: April 11, 2013, 08:37 »

@Radagast: I agree; in essence it's a good idea, although it'll need some tweaking. Say for example - as it was intended to be a dum dum rifle instead of shotgun - the first shot being a bullet which triggers a (reduced) shotgun blast upon impact. Something for the unique items thread maybe?
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2013, 08:59 »

I've tried to say the same thing... bullet (technically as one big shot or as four of std ones) hits the first target and ends it's way if target remains the whole piece of meat or triggers a blast if target gets gibbed. I'm not sure the discussion worth being in the U. I. thread because we sorta finished it. At least, it's started as the FragSG balancing. I love the fact Bengali দমদম (Dômdôm) sounds like "Doom-Doom". Not exactly (more like "Dom-Dom"... can't find any mentions on Youtube or elsewhere to listen).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 13:24 by Nick »
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skarczew

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2013, 17:41 »

"Pizdets Vsemu (F**kin' End to Everything)"
Ahh, screw that Wiki shitty legends :) .
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2013, 18:58 »

Random idea: If Firestorm is made into a Fire resistance mod, changing Fireshield to BTF would give Firestorms a very interesting and strong, but niche and not universal, defensive assembly option. (It could be nerfed some if the current extremely high Fire resistance is too much for a bit more common of a mod. Then again, it's not that incredibly much better, in practice, than Fireproof Red.)

An interesting option in the same vein might be to make a ATS armor that would be high melee/shrapnel/bullets resists. Since Sniper's a optical aid mod, maybe calling it Displacement Armor would work.

Edit: Another random thought that has occured to me; Generally speaking, the basic boots are a lot worse balanced than the armors.

Green Armor is worse than Blue Armor but is generally good against damage that's common when you get it, Blue Armor's similar but less extremely so with its own Plasma resist, and Red's generally the best.

Boots are extremely linear, though.

Also, there's a common complaint about Tactical Boots being overly powerful and monopolizing runs.

Why not just improve the overall balance, then?

Ditch Iron Boots. Replace them with Enviroboots, make those the weakest boot type, and give them 50% Acid resistance-which is the most common type of damage ground early-and 25% Fire, but just 1 Armor. Place them where Iron Boots are now.

Remove Tactical Boots as an Assembly, make them a normal boot type with 2 Protection and +5% Speed, no resists. This ends up the same amount of movement speed with an Agility mod as Tactical Boots are now, without being an assembly. Place them where Enviroboots are now.

Then make Plasteel Boots grant a dodging bonus of 5%. (Perhaps renaming them would make this more sensible, though...) Have the Technical Mod be able to boost any boot's dodge boost by 5%, instead of the knockback, too.

Boots in general are pretty hard to destroy, so the loss of regen on Tactical Boots isn't a big deal, and the speed is the same with a mod(and they get a little compensation for this loss by having a Protection value.). Enviroboots are the best defense early, while the new Plasteel would be the best defensive boot for dodging, but not for movement.

The overall bonus would probably be linear, but it's not very clear cut. I'm probably missing something here, but it sounds good in my head.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 22:14 by SageAcrin »
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lmaoboat

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2013, 12:06 »

Started playing again, and finally managed to beat the game on HNTR, so I thought I'd post some thoughts.

It kind of feels like pistol variety is lacking compared to the other weapons. Everything else has at least one other guaranteed upgrade, and their two-mod assemblies also seem better. I also feel like Oynx, Sniper, and Firestorm are a bit behind Nano in terms of assemblies. Also, don't if it's a bug, but Shamblers don't make hit sounds, which makes it hard to tell if I'm hitting them or not.
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LuckyDee

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2013, 12:11 »

It kind of feels like pistol variety is lacking compared to the other weapons.

That may be true, but once you get a couple of levels in SOG, even normal pistols do incredibly well. The exotic 'combat pistols' are pretty common, though.

I also feel like Oynx, Sniper, and Firestorm are a bit behind Nano in terms of assemblies.

Agreed, but you don't need to use these in assemblies to make them effective.

Also, don't if it's a bug, but Shamblers don't make hit sounds, which makes it hard to tell if I'm hitting them or not.

There are more creatures around that tend to do that. Luckily you can see what state they're in when they teleport in right next to you :S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 12:13 by LuckyDee »
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SageAcrin

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2013, 20:02 »

Considering that all Nightmare class enemies(not to be confused with enemies on Nightmare! difficulty, which are different, though some of them are Nightmare enemies...) don't make noises when hit, I assume it's on purpose.

It also makes Nightmare Archviles very, very annoying. "Why are these enemies reviv-oh."

As to pistols...I think the variety's fine. Blaster's a moddable, plasma damage, ammo regenerating pistol. Combat Pistol's notable for having a far bigger clip(This is a big deal, pistol setups are generally somewhat point intensive and it's hard to get Reloader fast). Cleric is essentially a pseudo-chaingun, Jackal...well, it's weird and I'm not sure how good it is(I want to get it on a pistol setup) but it's definitely different, and Trigun...well, Trigun's ability is amazing, though as a pistol it's basically a 3d6 pistol with a big reload time. Still, even that's not too bad for differences.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 20:03 by SageAcrin »
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lmaoboat

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #160 on: April 14, 2013, 21:10 »

I meant just the generic weapons. Like melee, shotguns, and chain guns all have guaranteed upgrades at some point.
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Radagast

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #161 on: April 15, 2013, 02:00 »

I meant just the generic weapons. Like melee, shotguns, and chain guns all have guaranteed upgrades at some point.

To be honest I kinda agree with this, just for the sake of more options and more variety in the game, in terms of pistols.
I actually encountered my first exotic pistol after way too many runs. I know it's random but finding a better pistol than the initial one after 10+ runs is somewhat not that logical. I did find a trigun though in one of those runs. I think..

And it's kinda strange considering the variety of pistols in real life. I mean come on it's a common weapon after all.
Check a list of pistols here for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pistols

I'm not saying the game needs that many pistols ofc, but it "could" actually use a minor or alternate upgrade or two in later levels, such as a colt, or a glock for instance. Other alternate ideas "could" be a desert eagle. This could provide a better damage/piercing option at the expense of higher reload time and low magazine number.

Just my humble opinion. :)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 02:01 by Radagast »
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AlterAsc

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #162 on: April 15, 2013, 03:53 »

The problem with adding another common pistol that's better than basic pistol is pistol's high scaling with SoG. Even a small upgrade translates in quite a noticeable difference later. For example combat pistol having initial 3d3 which is not much better than 2d4 becomes best single-shot pistol with 3d6 after P3 modding. And it also have super-high clip size, which is upgradable too...
I would like to use something other than what i got right on the start, but i don't think this can be easily balanced.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #163 on: April 15, 2013, 04:15 »

I think some more pistol variety would be nice, but I don't think guns need to be buffed. (Well, to be exact, I want guns buffed and SoG nerfed, so that guns could have a use in other builds)
Anyway, I'd rather put new "alternative basic pistols" than new exotics/uniques, which are usually more powerful.

Basically, fire time quickly becomes negligible, so a 'quick fire' pistol could be good for the couple of first levels in the game... and useless after that.  Unless you start with it, it doesn't seem worth to create such an item, I guess.
Most relevant parameters seem to be magazine size and precision. SoG makes most of the damages, but reaching 12 or more makes a difference, since it enables knockback.
What could we do with this ?

Here are some basic guns variants ideas :
Basic gun (just for comparison) :
1.0s firing time
1.2s reload time
2d4 damages (avg 5)
+4 precision
6 bullets magazine
Alt. fire : aimed shot (+3 precision, firing time doubled)
Alt. reload : dual reload


Precision gun :
1.2s firing time
1.2s reload time
3d2 damages (avg 4.5)
+7 precision
4 bullets magazine
Alt. fire : aimed shot (+7 precision, doubles firing time)
Alt. reload : none (or dual reload, if you want, but such a command shouldn't be on the weapon. It should belong to the interface. And anyway, it's quite useless)
The idea is just to have a gun with built-in EE, making shots more reliable. Weaker, and even worse than basic gun in terms of reloads, but better precision, which should also increases ammo efficiency. Since I think it might be quite weak, I buffed alt-fire (not sure it does a difference, but the goal is to improve out-of sight shooting accuracy)

Mammoth gun :
1s firing time
0.8s reload time
6d2 damages
+2 precision
2 bullets magazine
Alt fire : dual shot (-3 precision, fire both bullets at once, doubles firing time)
Alt. reload : same as previous.
Basically, this one is intended to give a chance of knockback to non MSS builds.

Glock 42 :
(9 or 12 bullets magazine, burst of 3 bullets, terrible precision) -> Either awful damages or overpowered ones (witg SoG). Too powerful with MSS or too weak with anythinf else -> bad idea (IMO)



Btw, I'm afraid those suggestions are not balanced, but I don't really see better ideas to improve pistols variety without reworking all guns & SoG itself.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #164 on: April 15, 2013, 04:21 »

Also, forgot to say I agree with SageAcrin (& some older posts) about boots problem : boots are currently non interesting at all. Most of the time, you'll go tactical boots since they are the only useful ones. Acid-protection ones are useless, acid-proof are rarely useful, and plasteel don't protect you enough for the lava pits, which is the only place where you could need them.

Reworking all the boots would probably be the best choice, with a split of useful stats on different items (speed, dodge, protection, maybe some activations... like Aegis boots, getting 100% protection for a short time full feets protection, etc.)

I also like the idea of T-mods improving dodge on armors/boots, since knockback reduction doesn't seem of any use.
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