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[Evilpotatoe]

Ok, I think anyone has ideas abous pros and cons for allowing save in N!
I'll try to sum them up without spoiling myself by searching for older posts. Anyway, for once, I think a fresh one will do good :)

Cons :

• Bah, just leave your computer running... it doesn't cost much.
• Saving lets you save-scum, it's bad, booh !
• Everytime you save, John Carmack kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens.

Pros :

• Save-scumming is not the only way of cheating, anyway.
• Would allow to use the save feature for what it is intended to do: to continue a game later !
• Easiest request to implement ever.

My point of view :

• Leaving computer running :
  would prevent me from sleeping, isn't an eco-responsible behaviour, increases power bill, is subject to power failures, makes the "game length" stat irrelevant, and needs to keep the game running if you want to play something else for 1 hour, day or week... well, do I need to say more ?
• About save scummers :
  I dont care. There is, and will always be, cheaters everywhere anyway. Also, currently, anyone can edit and post a fake mortem... why don't people care about this ?
• Other ways of cheating :
  I don't know about you, but when I saw I couldn't save in N!, my second reflex (first was suiciding) was to think about ways of bypassing this. Several came to my mind :
  
  
  • I added a bind to crash the game, calling function "save_game_please". since the game crashes, I get my save ! Could have completed N! AoPC with a lvl 32 character using this... where is the cheat protection xD ?
    The problem, btw, is for legit users : either you crash while/after clearing a level, giving you more XP (and possibly, stuff), or when entering the next (ruining your stats with monsters let alive... something I can't do either). So, for non-cheaters, it doesn't solve the problem at all.
  • Using a VM... I'm sure most RL players are geeks, and could easily do it. Personnally, I don't currently have one running, and am to lazy to install a VM just for that... but true cheaters are often subject to make some efforts :)
  • Editing the game exe/saves, or playing with game's memory while it runs. Here, again, I'm too lazy for that, but if I wanted to cheat... for sure, I would.

Conclusion :
As usual, only legit users are really concerned. Cheaters will find their way to get around this limitation. So... WHY keep it ? while it bothers only fair players ?
I didn't won a single nightmare game yet, mostly because I dont play N!, since I can't save... Gimme some badges please, allow me to play nightmare!, I know it's one if() away... so, why not add it in 0.9.9.7 ?

[thelaptop]

Because it is N! and Kornel made a major design decision.

Same thing as to why you will not hear official word on how to wield the DragonSlayer.

Perhaps we should add code that does not award N! medals/badges when a crashed-save is detected... that is also only an if() away...

[Deathwind]

or just prevent crash saves on N!

[Steve]

or just make it so N! never crashes ;)

[Evilpotatoe]

Bah... this isn't the point. "fix" this if you want, I wouldn't have been stupid enough to reveal this exploit if I used it.

My point is that as usual, only legit players are concerned by the restriction, since cheaters will always have techniques to bypass what they want.
Do you thik you can prevent people from editing the exe, or editing the game's memory ? I don't think so.
Same for game running in a VM, and those are just the few example I found, without thinking in deep about it, or beeing a cheating expert.
More importantly, I don't think Kornel or any other dev should lose time on this... it's their choice, of course, but I think fighting this is a loss of time.

Anyway, maybe I should have just asked this :
Since the initial goal, of cheat-prevention isn't reached, WHY continue handicapping fair players ?

[MaiZure]

Has N! cheating been a real issue around here?

EDIT: and I mean 'real' as opposed to theoretical

[Tormuse]

Personally, I've never really had an issue with not being able to save on N! difficulty, but I still would like there to be some kind of exception for N! Ao100 games, since those take a really long time, (at least for me) and all it takes is a one second power blip to ruin 1 day's (or more) work.

This especially applies to a certain new challenge mode being introduced in 0.9.9.7.  *You* know which one I'm talking about, Kornel.  ;)

[thelaptop]

This especially applies to a certain new challenge mode being introduced in 0.9.9.7.  *You* know which one I'm talking about, Kornel.  ;)

That is supposed to be a grind, not fun.  =P

Since the initial goal, of cheat-prevention isn't reached, WHY continue handicapping fair players ?

Are you kidding?  N! begins with the question:

Are you sure?  This difficulty level isn't even remotely fair! [y/n]

And you're complaining about the continual handicapping of fair players?

Cheat-prevention is not impossible.  But it is possible to raise the bar of cheating to the point that the effort to cheat becomes much more than just you know, playing the game.  Also a design decision.  If you can convince Kornel, I won't have anything else to say on the matter.

Has N! cheating been a real issue around here?

EDIT: and I mean 'real' as opposed to theoretical

Eh, I know a couple of people who do it, but they don't submit mortems with them.  As far as I'm concerned, N! cheating (and publicly showing outcome) is minimal.

[Tormuse]

That is supposed to be a grind, not fun.  =P

Nevertheless, my point still stands.  You know what's worse than getting to N! level 90 only to lose it all to a power failure?  Getting to N! level 590 only to lose it all to a power failure!  :P

[thelaptop]

Nevertheless, my point still stands.  You know what's worse than getting to N! level 90 only to lose it all to a power failure?  Getting to N! level 590 only to lose it all to a power failure!  :P

That's a good reason for you to invest in a UPS, which you should be getting anyway if you are "serious" about your computers.  =)

[AlterAsc]

That's a good reason for you to invest in a UPS, which you should be getting anyway if you are "serious" about your computers.  =)

Imagine it:
On lvl378 power fails.
You get 90 minutes left on your UPS.
Race against time starts now! Face your doom or be fast and victorius!

Actually you can just hybernate your PC, but that's no fun.

[thelaptop]

On lvl378 power fails.
You get 90 minutes left on your UPS.
Race against time starts now! Face your doom or be fast and victorius!

That would make a pretty damn awesome scary mortem.

[Tormuse]

That would make a pretty damn awesome scary mortem.

I'm sure 2dev would do it with 100% kills and time to spare.  :P

[Matt_S]

It's not like people care about my opinion, and it's not like I'll ever have the skill to play on Nightmare! anyways, but I agree with the OP completely.  From what I've seen, cheating wouldn't be difficult at all.

[raekuul]

It's not hard at all to cheat. The challenge comes in playing legit :)