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[Omegthemad]

I've heard good things about the Juggler trait, and it happens to be a prereq for at leas tone fairly powerful mastery. However, as much good as it is to insta-swap weapons, I use a laptop and therefore cannot in any way get full use out of the trait.

To wit: I cannot use the numeric quick-keys, as they are instead bound to the function-keyed numpad. Nor will the game suffer me to bind quick-keying weapons to a combination of keys, be they otherwise used or not - tested with SHIFT+, CTRL+, and ALT+ for numeric keys, and with CTRL+W for the pistol quickkey.

This leaves me feeling rather short changed. I would therefore like the next version to either allow quick-keying weapons to a key combination, or - and I suspect this is easier - to modify Juggler such that it allows instant preparation of weapons whether by quickkey or menu. Since one can already bind new quickkeys to be able to juggle all the weapons you wouldn't expect to be able to, I don't see the latter as a buff even if it lets you instantly prepare all the weapons in the game, since that can after all already be done.

[Radagast]

A fair point in my opinion too.

Juggler as it is now, is unnecessarily complicated in terms of control.
It's use/interface should be simplified since it just makes us lose precious time, without a decent reason.

The game could use such simplifications, especially since the only one that will be favored from such changes, is the gameplay itself.

[Klear]

Yeah, I agree. I find the remapping quickkeys trick a bit too exploity, and I don't like juggling weapons by the number quickkeys in general. I'd much rather see it give the same bonus to stuff accessed from inventory.

[LuckyDee]

Erm... am I the only one who simply mashes the 'z' key to accomplish this?

[Radagast]

Erm... am I the only one who simply mashes the 'z' key to accomplish this?

No man that's just a tiny bit of what juggler does. Did you ever care to press numbers 1 to 9 to see what happens?

[ParaSait]

Wait, juggler also works for the numpad quick keys? Lol, I play DoomRL since version 0.9.8, and I never knew.
Then again I rarely ever pick juggler and I don't use numpad either...

But yea, in that case: fully agree with this request.

[Klear]

I consciously don't use the numpad thing with juggler, it makes no sense that it is possible with some weapons and not with others, and so I like to pretend it doesn't work at all.

[LuckyDee]

Yeah, I know you can access weapons with them, if you have them.

Ah. Took another look at the wiki. Completely failed to notice that quickkeyed weapons are included as well; thought it just went between prepared weapons.
Must remember that, though the times at which I carry more than 2 weapons (except maybe a BFG, which I'll keep for specific purposes) are rare.

[thelaptop]

Maybe we should nerf the whole adjustable quick-keys aspect.

* thelaptop mumbles something incoherent

[MaiZure]

Yup, time to make room for another trait entirely

[Equality]

Are anybody try mouse wheel for switching?

[Tormuse]

I find Juggler trait to be extremely useful for Ao100 runs.  I can't always count on getting enough of any particular ammo type, so I'll have one weapon of each ammo type that I can juggle between.  I didn't realize until very recently that we can rebind keys to allow for instaswitching to special weapons, so up until now, I would only carry the basic weapons, or assemblies thereof.  (with maybe one special weapon in the prepared slot)  I agree that it seems like a bit of a silly restriction to not allow instaswitching to unbound weapons if you can get around it by rebinding keys, so I would support the decision to just allow instaswitching of all weapons or, as thelaptop suggested, cease to allow quick-keying of specials.

[Equality]

Again. USE F**ING WHEEL! :)) Mouse wheel get access to all weapons you have. Not "pistol-shotgun-etc", but "pistol (P1T1) - combat pistol (B2) - minigun - ..."
If you have a Juggler, switching from one to another always instant. No keybindings are needed.

[Matt_S]

The mouse wheel doesn't instantly switch.  Or work in console mode, but mostly the first part.

Disregard, I'm stupid.  It is instant, it just doesn't give the usual message.

[thelaptop]

Let's nerf the mouse-wheel weapon select too!

* thelaptop grins very evilly

[Matt_S]

Honestly, I think Juggler should only work with the prepared slot.  The fact that quick-keys actually speed up the equipment time seems silly.

[LuckyDee]

Honestly, I think Juggler should only work with the prepared slot.  The fact that quick-keys actually speed up the equipment time seems silly.

+1

[Omegthemad]

Again. USE F**ING WHEEL! :)) Mouse wheel get access to all weapons you have. Not "pistol-shotgun-etc", but "pistol (P1T1) - combat pistol (B2) - minigun - ..."
If you have a Juggler, switching from one to another always instant. No keybindings are needed.

Yes, because every time I deploy a laptop it's on a nice big sprawling desk where I have room to install a mouse. </sarcasm>

I'll get back to you on whether the change I'm requesting already exists though - it isn't documented so I didn't instantly think to test it empirically.

EDIT: It doesn't.

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Igor Savin, level 2 Hell Knight 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
 was slashed by an imp on level 2 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 3985 turns and scored 4163 points.
 He played for 2 minutes and 20 seconds.
 He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.

 He killed 16 out of 25 hellspawn. (64%)

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 0
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  None

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ######################################=====################
  .............#.................#...i.=====.......#......00.
  |.........|..#.................#.....0==^=......./.........
  ........0....#.................#..|.0i====.......#....0....
  ##+###+#######...........0.....#.....=====.......#.....|...
  .............#&................#.....=====.......#.....|...
  #####/########+#####+#####/#####....=====#.......#....|....
  ..........%..#....0............#....=====#.......#........|
  ########/###.#.................#i...=====#.......#.......>.
  .............#........|........#....=====#.......#.........
  .............#.................#....=====#.^.....#.........
  .............#.........%|......#..h.=====#.....i.#.........
  .............#.................#.....=====.h.....#.........
  ............./..........=.....Xi.....=====......./.........
  .............#.......====......#.....=====.......#........|
  .............#.........==......#.....=====i......#......i..
  .............#..........==.....#.....=====.......#.........
  .............#........=........#.....=====.......#..|......
  .............#.................#....==>==#.......#.........
  ####################################=====##################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 554/2
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 1)
    Juggler          (Level 1)

  Fin->Jug->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   green armor [1/1] (46%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   nothing
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shotgun (8d3) [1/1]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] pistol (2d4) [6/6]
    [b] 10mm ammo (x18)
    [c] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [d] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [e] shotgun shell (x22)
    [f] small med-pack
    [g] small med-pack
    [h] small med-pack
    [i] small med-pack

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 0%    torso 7%    feet 0%   
    Shrapnel   - internal 0%    torso 7%    feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    9 former humans
    1 former sergeant
    1 former captain
    2 imps
    3 demons

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he finally was slashed by an imp.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6] The missile hits the imp. You are hit!
 You dodge! The missile hits the imp.
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40]
 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6] The missile hits the imp.
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] The imp hits you.
 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6] The missile hits the imp. The imp dies.
 You are hit!
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40]
 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6] The former human reloads his pistol.
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] The imp hits you. You are hit!
 The imp hits you.
 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6]
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] The imp hits you.
 You wear/wield : a pistol (2d4) [6/6] The imp hits you.
 You wear/wield : a chaingun (1d6)x4 [40/40] The imp hits you. You die!...
 Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 261 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 234 of those were killed.
 14 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 7 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 6 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 1 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 3 killed the bitch and survived.
 2 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

[Ashannar]

Either make juggler only work on the prepared slot or make it work on the entire inventory.

Just make it consistent.

[Equality]

sorry, works only with prepared weapon... I try first time - and switch to actually prepared weapon (instant). It's a pity that juggler not work in such way.

[Matt_S]

Hmm?  When I tried the mouse wheel, it worked instantly with Juggler.

[AcidLead]

I really don't see a purpose to making the menu function differently with Juggler, especially if rebinding quick keys (or apparently even knowing they exist) isn't something that every player picks up. Furthermore, I could easily see Juggler being nerfed down to just the on-hand/off-hand pair, as long you could still bash with an appropriate off-hand item. As it is, it's starting to feel like it's too powerful for me to pass up. Of course, I always try to have one of every weapon anyways so that's really just the game catering to my (probably poor) playstyle.

Regardless of Juggler, I like the quick keys and would be sad to see them go no matter how Juggler interacted with them (or did not).

[ParaSait]

Seems like poll time to me! "To numpad or not to numpad, that is the question"!

[IronBeer]

Either make juggler only work on the prepared slot or make it work on the entire inventory.

Just make it consistent.

How about this: make Juggler a two-level trait like Badass. First level of Juggler behaves as it currently does, barring the numpad interaction. Second level allows intsa-swapping to/from any weapons in your inventory.

No more of these exploity numpad shenanigans, and we get what I *think* was the original intention of that interaction.

[Deathwind]

That would even put it on par with the other advanced traits.

[Klear]

How about this: make Juggler a two-level trait like Badass. First level of Juggler behaves as it currently does, barring the numpad interaction. Second level allows intsa-swapping to/from any weapons in your inventory.

No more of these exploity numpad shenanigans, and we get what I *think* was the original intention of that interaction.

I think I saw this suggestion somewhere ages ago. I supported it then and I support it now.

[Equality]

Adding one more level of existing trait need some balance changes. Add monsters or longer episodes, or more experience from kills. Once start such work, more and more rebalance needed. Looks as very global changes.

[AlterAsc]

Badass was split into two levels, and no rebalance of the game was required.
I think you exaggerate the issue.

[Radagast]

Juggler is pretty nice I do get it in "very few" runs though but I don't really think it's that much overpowered to require it to split to 2 traits.

I'm pretty sure almost no marine would like to spend 2 points that way. It's exaggeration for a decent skill that is not even remotely powerful enough. Usually you go for a master trait and even afterwards you have holes to fill in with other traits. It's not actually a skill that you get in all your plays. Just some of them. Requiring 2 points, would probably make me ditch the skill completely never getting it at all. Just my opinion though.

Badass for example that was mentioned, is much more useful basically because it does 2 things at the same time and can become useful in almost all plays actually.

[Klear]

...yet I rarely take a second level in badass. But some people take it. I think that some people wouldn't waste time with Jug2 and some would.

[Evilpotatoe]

I like the idea of a two level trait, I'd suggest something like this :

Lvl 1 : instant swap with prepared, swapping to a weapon from inventory takes less time (lets say .5 sec instead of 1)
Lvl 2 : instant swap with any weapon, prepared or not, and some little bonus, like faster/instant equipping of ammo boxes and/or armors.
We could even imagine a 3rd level with instant use of any item in inventory (quite redundant with techie, ofc, but not everyone is techie)

Forgot to mention I hate the current system, where juggler is quite OP with correct keybindings. not intuitive, not balanced...

[Deathwind]

Juggler as it stands lets me fire up several shotguns/rockets without delay or reloading, my current record is 7 guns before stopping. I think it can stand to be split to two levels.