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[Ashannar]

Disappointing. :(

I expect to fight the game, but I didn't think fighting the developers would be part of the difficulty of N!

If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.

[Radagast]

Roguelikes actually never had such an issue. Not rogue the original, not nethack, not adom, nor any of the modern good ones either such as stone soup, desktop dungeons, tome, dredmor, ftl or any other for that matter.
Roguelikes are supposed to be tactical games with turn based decisions, like it or not. Speed was never a goal, much less a necessity to play. Private lives should get a break when they need to. All such developers respected that, always.

Disappointing. :(
I expect to fight the game, but I didn't think fighting the developers would be part of the difficulty of N!

Indeed and that's the most challenging difficulty of all. Disappointing indeed.

If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.

Truer words were never spoken...

Negativity is understandable at times and when there is good reason, but this time there are not even decent arguments to back it up, that's what makes me sad mostly.

Tormuse's idea is probably pretty decent if feasible but anyway, I think I won't continue any more talk here since it's obvious that this is not even a proper discussion in the first place.

[raekuul]

Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.

DoomRL is the only Roguelike I've played where locking the HP was the only precaution a hex cheater had to take to win.

[Matt_S]

I'm disappointed that something that even a couple of supporters would want is simply non-negotiable, but fine.  I won't ever bring the subject up again.

[Equality]

If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.

Hex editor and invincible is not an option. If you try that )
But of course we can convert our pistol to devastating 20d20+20, explosive radius 6, damage type 'plasma' or upgrade any of that weak green armor to 100% resist all :)))) items can be changed. Changing player properties not so easy.

[Tormuse]

If you can't "beast" N! within 2 hours, perhaps your skill in the game hasn't reached that level.  In that case, play at a level that you are comfortable with.

This quote made me curious about what my average Nightmare! times are, so I browsed through my old mortems...

Spoiler: Lots of links (click to show/hide)

3 hours

2 hours

48 hours

0.5 hour

5 hours

77.5 hours!

4 hours

5.5 hours

2.5 hours

3 hours

3 hours

3.5 hours

0.5 hours

9.5 hours

1.5 hours

0.2 hours

25.5 hours

1.5 hours

25.5 hours

3 hours

16 hours

17 hours

5 hours

0.2 hours

32.5 hours

28 hours

1 hour

4.5 hours

0.2 hours

0.5 hours

(Hopefully, I didn't miss anything)  :P

There's a wide range of times, because I'm including both Ao100 games and speedruns, but all of the above listed games are Nightmare! games in which I won.  I'm doing a lot of rounding with the times, but it gives a good cross-section of my playing speed.  The average comes to just under 12 hours per game.

So, thelaptop, do you still say this means that I'm a "not skilled enough" player that should "play at a more comfortable level?"  ;)

I'm being facetious, of course, but my point is that difficulty and skill have nothing to do with this discussion.  Fairness has nothing to do with this discussion.  Not being able to save doesn't mean you need to be more "skilled" to complete the game and being able to save doesn't make the game more "fair."  I think yaflhdztioxo had an excellent point in the other thread that the purpose of not being able to save at N! is a psychological one.  It's a kick in the balls to remind you of what you signed up for.  I get that.  I understand it.  It works quite well, actually.  I've tolerated it up until now because it's the only way I can win Diamond badges, but I still find it a nuisance leaving my computer on for long hours and I still think it's prudent to make an exception in the case of Ao100 and AAo666 because some people might not be able to leave their game running all day and all night and I don't like the idea of penalizing them like this.

The Devteam is welcome to do whatever they want regarding this issue, but this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  :)

[Ashannar]

I'm disappointed that something that even a couple of supporters would want is simply non-negotiable, but fine.  I won't ever bring the subject up again.

I definitely wouldn't want the developers to kowtow to everything supporters want. That'd be a good way to ruin the game. I think the game is great, and I was perhaps a bit too negative earlier.

Does anyone know if you can alt-tab out of the game and then put your computer in sleep mode and then resume your game when you un-sleep your computer? That would be a good workaround for me.

[MaiZure]

Does anyone know if you can alt-tab out of the game and then put your computer in sleep mode and then resume your game when you un-sleep your computer? That would be a good workaround for me.

I believe the answer is yes - I play exclusively on a laptop and I have had to just close it and move (making it hibernate) many times, including in the recent version. I have no problems opening it back up and jumping back in to the game.

The only real danger is forgetting just how precious my situation was at the time I broke the DoomRL mind-meld. "Oh yeah - this was AoMC and that Baron just blasted me down to 5%"

[AlterAsc]

Hibernate works for me too.

[Klear]

Hibernation once messed up my chrome, but DoomRL is as stable as ever if you hibernate/sleep.

[Flame_US3r]

I think yaflhdztioxo had an excellent point in the other thread that the purpose of not being able to save at N! is a psychological one.  It's a kick in the balls to remind you of what you signed up for.

I think Tormuse/yaflhdztioxo are right here. It really doesn't make sense for many of the other reasons stated in the thread. Walking away/hibernating/sleeping are no different because it is a turn based game (unless your power goes out heheh).

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ok, time to take up an official statement. There are three reasons why N! doesn't allow saving:

1) as already stated, it's a psychological trick - not only of a kick in the balls, but also that "there's no leaving of Nightmare!" - it's supposed to enforce a feeling of inability to escape.

2) secondly it is to encourage an increase of speed in playing the game. Once you enter Nightmare, you're encouraged to learn to play fast, for a different feel, supporting the already dynamic DoomRL environment

3) finally, and maybe most importantly, it is to discourage cheating. Let me however state something here -- it is pretty obvious it's not any serious prevention - memhacks or VM's are totally workable. But people who can use those are *not the people that I want to prevent cheating*. The prevention is against people that are casual PC users, that can copy files, and actually do that as soon as they see the game deletes the saves. It's an obvious thing that many first time roguelike players do. Such people can go through the game up to to UV, without actually *knowing* that they miss a lot of the thrill of the game. The inability of saving in N! is to give those people a chance at experiencing the thrill of permadeath.

That said, it is true that the game grew out beyond a length that would be considered "coffee-break", so if I find a reasonable solution (just "enabling N! saves" is not a solution), I might consider.

[Fanta Hege]

If you guys really are that conserned about save scumming on N! make this happen:
"Are you sure you want to save the game? You will not earn any badges if you do so Y/n?"

[thelaptop]

"Are you sure you want to save the game? You will not earn any badges if you do so Y/n?"

"Nah nah!  Just kidding!  You can't save on Nightmare!"

*exit game*

I like this idea!  Thanks Fanta!

[Tormuse]

@Kornel, what do you think of my suggestion above of putting Nightmare! saves on the server?  That would address your number 3 concern.

And you can combine that with other people's suggestions of limiting the number of saves.  (Or perhaps only allowing a save after a certain number of levels have gone by?   Perhaps you only get the option after a minimum of level 25?  Or 50?  And then you lose the option until another 50 have gone by?)  That might address the number 1 concern.

As for number 2...  I usually die if I go fast, so I don't know what to do about that.  :P