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Author Topic: A small suggestion.  (Read 2291 times)

Einrich

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A small suggestion.
« on: April 14, 2013, 20:30 »

Really, the only problem I seem to keep encountering (at least early on, because apparently no matter how careful I try to be, I'm lucky if I manage to get to Hell without using shotguns) is having too much ammo and not enough space to carry it. This is most prevalent with 10mm ammunition on Angel of Marksmanship. I'm not saying there should just be one stack with infinite ammo (although let's be serious, realism went out the window when Hell invaded Phobos), but the ability to convert ammunition stacks into their larger equivalents (i.e. 10mm ammo into 10mm ammo chains, shotgun shells into shell boxes, rockets into boxes of rockets, plasma cells into plasma batteries) would just be helpful. I'd even jive with having to take a trait to do it. Call it Ammo Packer or something or maybe just tack it onto Whizkid (1).

Would just be a useful skill to have and would hardly affect balance.

Or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about and have too severe kleptomania when it comes to ammunition.
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SageAcrin

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 20:57 »

Well, the problem with making a skill that just makes ammo stacks bigger is that it would largely be useless-you can get by with normal stacks. It would also make for a massive newbie trap-those bothered by the limited inventory would sink points into it, rather than more combat useful skills.

The problem with allowing a skill that makes standard ammochains/shell boxes/etc. is that it would compete with Reloader(because you reload far faster from those). And largely it would be better at it, every way I can see to make it.

If there were a good way to make an ammo capacity boosting skill, it'd probably be to attach it to a notably weak skill, or one that's thematic, and to make it function like a weaker Backpack(such as +5% ammo capacity per stack per level). Maybe something like Triggerhappy.
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ParaSait

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 21:07 »

Ammo management plays a rather important role in this game and changing it really does affect gameplay a lot.
But there are several things you can do if it bothers you.
1) Get the backpack from the wall or the containment area. it'll increase ammo stack size with 40%.
2) Get the ammochain master trait. Makes you use only 1 bullet per volley.
3) Learn how to stop being a packrat. Make some observations on your item usage (how much of what you hoarded did you actually use?) and think of those to improve your skillz in effective inventory management. Also think of ways how to do a better job in conserving ammo etc...
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MaiZure

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 21:16 »

I think no one would really use it.
Why?

Because inventory management is merely a tertiary problem within DoomRL. People would almost always go for traits that directly deal with the primary problems of 1) killing everything 2) without being killed.

Although Inventory management is a core element to the challenge - I'm certain this trait would likely see very little use just like other non-primary-problem-focused traits in the past have. (Runner Man anyone?)
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LuckyDee

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2013, 01:06 »

Really, the only problem I seem to keep encountering ... is having too much ammo and not enough space to carry it.

How is this a problem? It would be truly nasty if you had all the space in the world, and no ammo to fill it with. If you structurally have too much ammo, it's time to drop some in favor of other useful items.

And like the others mentioned before, you just have to get the knack of inventory management. Once you find a right balance, things have to go downhill pretty fast for you to run out of anything.
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Radagast

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 02:06 »

While I agree with most of the upper replies, I had serious ammo issues in a recent ao100.
Until  I got a nano mod pack that is.

But until then, ammo was actually a huge issue. I'm pretty sure it's the same in ao666 which I'm bored like hell to play.
All I'm saying is while it is indeed a less useful trait in a normal run and I'd probably ignore it, it is progressively more important in larger games/challenges to somehow deal with the ammo issue. You either make an endless supply weapon with nano, or you'll just have problems. Unless ofc you went the ammochain way.

Ofc making shell boxes, rocket boxes is completely out of the question and overboard as an idea, since it practically makes the reload traits useless. It's a completely overpowered and unbalanced idea.
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Klear

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 02:14 »

If you're having problems with not enough space for ammo, you might be hoarding too much of other stuff. A lot of new players tend to carry ~10 medkits, which is a lot more than you should need. Two phase devices (one of each kind) is enough, a single stack of rockets if you're carrying a launcher, one or two replacement armours are good, but don't over do it with them either.

When choosing what to take with you, remember that you can pass a level without using medkits, but unless you're meleeing, you will definitely need ammo.
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Radagast

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 02:18 »

If you're having problems with not enough space for ammo, you might be hoarding too much of other stuff. A lot of new players tend to carry ~10 medkits, which is a lot more than you should need. Two phase devices (one of each kind) is enough, a single stack of rockets if you're carrying a launcher, one or two replacement armours are good, but don't over do it with them either.

When choosing what to take with you, remember that you can pass a level without using medkits, but unless you're meleeing, you will definitely need ammo.

Yup I know, your suggestions pretty much cover the way I hoard items too more or less. 2-3medkits is actually my limit for almost all ranged builds.
Still in UV Ao100/Ao666, it gets incredibly easy to run out of ammunition without the nano. Depends on the enemies that spawn on each level. It's quite easy to get unlucky in some levels in a row.
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Games: 37 -- Wins: 0/2/3/5/0, best game so far: AoSh/UV/YAAM
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Klear

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 02:22 »

Tell me about it. I've failed a couple of runs after I ran out of ammo with ammochain, though that was mostly since I stopped worrying about ammo after getting it and a little bit overestimated it.
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AlterAsc

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 03:57 »

The only time i find ammo (and inventory in general) management annoying is during Conqueror runs.
AM staff, envirosuit(two on lower difficulties), RL+rockets to pass anomaly, shotgun+shells for CoS, melee weapon for UC and so on. Having half of you inventory lying as dead weight until one point where it's essential doesn't bring me any happiness.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 04:00 by AlterAsc »
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lmaoboat

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 18:53 »

Ammo isn't the problem, it's all those skulls and hellwave packs I never use because I'm afraid I'll need them even more later.
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SageAcrin

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 21:23 »

Skulls and shockwaves are vaguely useless to carry around.

They're not bad, it's just...you could be carrying something you use more than once, that's more likely to save your life. Skulls are pretty much Mortuary/Limbo fodder for me; If I'm not keeping them for that, I just use them the first convenient spot for a small heal or berserk(and I just pick up Fire ones to register them.).

Shockwaves just strike me as kinda bad(not on paper, just...they don't compete well with the other uses for a slot. 50 average damage over rad 6 is basically a BFG shot with the range of a knife throw. Think about how often this will save you). Actual Hellwaves are a good Phase substitute(you can often use them in many of the same situations you'd need a Phase), but they're pretty rare.

Quote
A lot of new players tend to carry ~10 medkits, which is a lot more than you should need.

Hey, I go up to seven or eight sometimes. :| But I like my safety nets, and often sacrifice weapon options for more medkits. And of course, a really durable armor means no armor spares needed, which means more Medkits.

What I'm saying here is that I really like Medkits.

The trick is mostly that you should never carry Small Medkits after the first eight floors-they're not even that great there, unless you're on ITYTD! or N!. That's a big newbie mistake; They just aren't that good, at best being better than nothing.

Large Medkits only get common enough to be inventory clutter if you're having a really, really good run, so it's not really that big of a deal anyways.
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bwross

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Re: A small suggestion.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2013, 13:16 »

Having it as a simple skill or general ability is definitely not the way to go.  Play Angel of Light Travel with a non-melee build and you'll learn what's important in your inventory.

Which isn't to say that the general idea is bad... it just shouldn't be easily available or on a stick.  If there were ammo container fixer objects and levers like there are for armour and HP, it probably wouldn't be so bad... those are random and have to be used on the level.  Similarly, if you could apply, say, a B-mod to an ammochain and have it refill from your inventory, that's a real cost.  As a character ability, though, it needs to be quite limited... for example, having Scavengers be able to recharge a container by unloading another container (ie unload an ammo chain to refill a second ammo chain in the prepared slot), and not simply restocking from loose ammo.
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