DRL > Discussion
So, anybody have good advice for Phobos Lab on UV+?
Evilpotatoe:
From my current experience, I surprisingly realized that my char already seems powerful enough at phobos lab. I always get a ton of free spare small medkits at the end.
I try to get the "best" traits I can, which leads to few variations in picks outside challenges... stupid but efficient.
My current build is SoB->Int->Int->SoB->SoB->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->Bru->Bru->Ber->Fin->...
The core are SoB3 and Int2. I'm always scout, since Int needs it, and movespeed is tasty (well, other class bonuses are too) Ber has only been added (as MCe replacement) to make UC clearing faster (throwing a knife for 1.30 hour is quite boring, and usually made me miss conqueror unless I find a nuke & globe -.-)
With SoB3, a simple shotgun usually knocks back enough to dispose of N! demons. (use a combat or tactical if you prefer, but I reverted again to 9d3 shotty recently, and think I prefer it)
The first times I tried phobos lab, I used to run for every pack of smurfs I pulled, but now, I often just go back some squares to ensure I can knock them back, and shoot them to death.
I think on N!, it's still better to run to the left part of the pool, so that they take the diagonal, and die in acid. I don't remember how I played, but the only alternative I see is too pull them respawn after respawn, which might be quite dangerous with N! demons, and will need to stock some shells.
I rarely use rapid fire, and carry RL only for gibbing or jumps.
Also, to max movespeed, I often use no armor... but sometimes wear a green or blue (I rarely don a red). Dunno if it makes a big difference. I also favor A modded Tac boots, which are just not Tac yet, at this depth.
Hope this helps.
By the way, phobos lab's difficulty and vicious design are ridiculous, especially if you consider it's paired with military base, and there's about no rewards.
Kristopher:
That should actually be pretty helpful, thanks. I did have my best time in there on a Scout that rushed SoB(3) first (then went for Int(2)), but I had the same problem with UC(since why would I go to Phobos Lab anyways unless I had a homing phase and really wanted the mods at the end or if I'm going for conqueror?). When I do choose Scout, I tend to choose it for the master traits(specifically MCe or MBm), and I didn't think to just pump Brute through Berserk later on. It's a good idea.
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on May 16, 2013, 05:17 ---I also favor A modded Tac boots, which are just not Tac yet, at this depth.
--- End quote ---
Do you just mean A-modded steel boots?
Evilpotatoe:
At this time, yes, stupid A-modded steel boots (sometimes without an A, if I found "bad" mods, like power :p).
Protective boots might be better for this lab... but unless you put an A on them, they'll kinda suck, and putting one looks like a waste to me.
When you say you don't bother to visit special levels unless they benefit your build... I'm tempted to reply that all special levels benefit any build, for obvious XP purposes.
The only 'build' specific special level which comes to my mind is CC, for chainsaw, which also has zerk packs and 2 free mods... good for any build. CC+ are a little tougher, but outside of challenges, I think they are a great training ground anyway, and should never be skipped.
In fact, they are even a better training ground for challenges... but I can understand if you prefer skipping them.
Personally, I learnt a lot when I trained (read - played 50+ times, from a save, to compare different possible strategies) in the CC+ as an AoMr, on UV.
The only level I was used to skip was the mortuary, but now (maybe because I don't play under UV anymore), I always go in. UC is particular. My current choice is to weaken my build rather than losing conqueror, but it's clearly not optimized to ease my win (those 3 levels could be in HR instead...)
Arena can be particularly good to skip now, not only for AoB, but also AoRA, and probably a few other ones, since new chain courts are a real gift for an early char.
And city of skulls is bad for AoMr (but possible !)
Outside of those (and some other challenges), I don't see a reason to skip a level, other than a speedrun :)
Kristopher:
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on May 16, 2013, 14:19 ---When you say you don't bother to visit special levels unless they benefit your build... I'm tempted to reply that all special levels benefit any build, for obvious XP purposes.
--- End quote ---
That's just the thing; on UV at least, I've come to notice that the XP is way high enough to skip some of the special levels and still level up at very good pace. In fact, if there's anything UV has taught me, it's that there's absolutely no reason to stretch out for XP (I'm sure this can depend on your build choice, since some master traits need more xp and are more important to get to early than others) if it seems like even a remotely poor idea.
As a more extreme example, though I don't post my mortems, my last and by far most successful victories were:
-- Special levels --------------------------------------------
Levels generated : 11
Levels visited : 5
Levels completed : 4
--- End code ---
Ammochain - The non-completed level was The Vaults (when applicable, I don't see any reason not to enter it just to clear two vaults when I don't have the AM's staff on me, even if it takes away my YAAM). Got to the true evil, but ended up getting killed when he started randomly teleporting off-screen whenever I was shooting at him. First time that's ever happened to me. Was weird.
-- Special levels --------------------------------------------
Levels generated : 11
Levels visited : 5
Levels completed : 4
--- End code ---
Army of the Dead - Non-completed level was The Vaults; same reason as the one before it. Full win.
-- Special levels --------------------------------------------
Levels generated : 11
Levels visited : 2
Levels completed : 2
--- End code ---
Gunrunner - Would've been 3 levels visited, but Phobos Lab spawned. Nope. As soon as I got Gunrunner, I just started dashing down stairways. I could have explored looking for a nuke or nuclear weapon, but I kind of hate this master-trait(it was a themed run), so I just went straight down and finished it. Standard victory.
-- Special levels --------------------------------------------
Levels generated : 11
Levels visited : 2
Levels completed : 2
--- End code ---
Masterless Melee build - This one was actually the easiest run of them all (would've been 3, but, yeah, Phobos Lab spawned). Once again no nuke or nuclear weapon (I really hate how not only is the Spider's Lair paired, but it no longer has the nuclear plasma rifle), but no stress. Standard victory.
I know that these are just isolated examples, but it's funny just how successful and easy these runs were in comparison to ones where I attempted to visit a bunch of special levels. Admittedly, I got lucky and found a Super Shotgun in HA on my Army of the Dead build, but on every other one I actually had pretty eh luck and a decent batch of awful spawns.
So, while I understand why one would want to complete more special levels (otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread regarding a level that I genuinely can't see a decent tactical reason to visit without a homing phase), I don't see a reason to do a good share of the levels unless it, obviously with a few exceptions, directly benefits your build with more than just XP.
Note that I don't play on N!. Not yet, anyways.
Evilpotatoe:
I absolutely agree that you have a ton of XP in UV, and can waste a lot, either by skipping special levels or rushing stairs, like you did with gunrunner (which looks to be an awful mastery to me.. tried it once for AoRA, and quickly repicked SoB on next runs)
When I say I see no reason to skip thoses, here's what I meant :
-They give XP, and sometimes useful stuff
-They have fixed difficulty, so outside of some random or dangerous aspects, like AM, phobos lab, double shamblers, or mortuary... I rarely see any risk going in. City of skulls for example, is terrible for an AoMr, but else.. ? just take a shotty and ammo box, and you can make it damageless past the initial ambush very easily.
My point of view is that it has no cost (in term of risks taken), and makes the rest of the run easier. Of course it's not necessary at all, else, we couldn't complete, for example, a N! game in 20 (or 4!) minutes.
By the way, if you're speedrunning (be it for a badge, or just because you want your game to end quicker than a conqueror YAAM YAFW one), skipping levels or levels part is a good choice, as long as you know what you do and don't get to hell with CLvl 3, wondering how you'll dispose of those viles pack :p
My recent build shift is a good illustration of the differences in our playstyles : I used to get MCe, but had to skip UC -> I switched to Ber instead, to get conqueror. Benefit : conqueror, drawback : 3 levels wasted !
Usually, I was always skipping UC for that reason (didn't even consider it unless I found a nuke): there's no point wasting 3 levels for that... which is exactly what you do with most levels (except that, imo, most other levels don't need anything particular to be cleared without taking risks)
Now that I know I don't need those levels anyway, I clear it, for the sake of completion, but if I just wanted to win ? I'd continue to ignore it, of course.
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