DoomRL > Discussion
Jackhammer with MAc?
Evilpotatoe:
TH : "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."
I agree, it's confuse, but imo, the idea is "rather" clear : TH makes you shoot faster with "any" weapon, while MAc only applies to "rapid fire" category.
I don't think having weapons of multiple categories is intended (not that I'm against it, but it seems "too complex", compared to usual doomRL design choices, so, a gun or shotgun shouldn't be considered rapid fire.)
What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)
About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.
The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?
As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)
Klear:
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on June 11, 2013, 10:57 ---What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)
--- End quote ---
The way I understand TH, it represents Doomguy's willingness to keep the trigger pressed just a bit longer, whether the monster he is shooting at is dead or not. That obviously doesn't carry over to the non-automatic weapons.
That's also the reason why I don't like MAc very much - I can't find a similar rationalisation. But that's be. I prefer flavour to gameplay to a big extend.
Sereg:
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on June 11, 2013, 10:57 ---TH : "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid(emphasis added to quote) shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."
What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me.
--- End quote ---
Because TH says an extra rapid shot, implying that, for this ability to take effect, the weapon needs to have rapidfire capability. I agree the wording is not as clear as it could be, but that's what I get from it.
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on June 11, 2013, 10:57 ---About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.
The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?
As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)
--- End quote ---
Yeah, there's a lot more discussion that needs to go on beyond this rather minor change to a single mastery and weapon. Like you said, there are definitely some more urgent priorities. I don't know if I entirely agree with you about making changes so significant that they completely remove core strategies - that might be more appropriate for a mod, in my opinion. Still, it's not as though those changes are contrary to the spirit of the game, so if it happens, it happens, and I'll learn to deal with it, just like I'll have to deal with the dual angel rebalancing that's all but inevitable in the next release.
--- Quote from: thelaptop on June 11, 2013, 10:11 ---Alright, everyone stop and take five. You guys made me source dive to sort this out. I really don't like doing that. >.<
Here's what I think. It is a bug. The offending line in the source (dfbeing.pas:1181) specifically tries to isolate weapons that do more than one shot and is not a shotgun nor a pistol, but it gets overridden by presence of MBD or the presence of more than two shots. I'm using "shot" here as "amount of ammunition consumed" -- it's the variable used in the code.
It's a bug. I say so because of the specific isolation code for checking to see if the weapon is not a shotgun nor a pistol. I suspect that the logical premise wasn't considered fully.
I will check with the person who edited that line to see what to do about it.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for checking that out - explains why BFG 10k still works, but Jackhammer and Storm Bolter don't. I'm interested in how that ends up being dealt with.
ZicherCZ:
--- Quote from: LuckyDee on June 11, 2013, 10:51 ---You were right. Discussion has been nerfed.
--- End quote ---
... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
skarczew:
--- Quote from: ZicherCZ on June 11, 2013, 14:46 ---... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
--- End quote ---
When it comes to nerfing, thelaptop is like Chuck Norris. He can nerf himself. Moreover, he can nerf himself so much, that he would become overnerfed. From being overnerfed, he can nerf himself even more, so he would become undernerfed - and overpowered as a result.
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