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[Sereg]

I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.

[...]

You're comparing an Ao666 weapon with a regular drop...

So are you, though. The only place you're guaranteed to get Jackhammer is AAo666. If you're building MAc specifically for it, you're going to be disappointed otherwise, because odds are, you're not gonna find it.

In a normal game where you are lucky enough to find it, by the time that happens, your build may already block MAc, or in any case, it will probably be quite a stretch to adapt to it... unless you were building toward MAc anyway, in which case, it's not really an issue.

[Evilpotatoe]

So, what d'you conclude, that Jackhammer sucks ? I guess Frag shotgun and Charch's null pointer are better.

Using 3 shell boxes for CoS... just explain me why you used a jackhammer in that level ! I cleared several mortuaries with jackye and 3 shell boxes... but why would you overkill lost souls with that O_o ?

"Something is not bad." "I use other stuff anyway." <-- I see some contradiction here :P

Why ? Anti-grav boots are great, insane... and I prefer crafting nanomachic weapons. Power armor is great too, and I hardly ever craft one for the same reason...
An even better example, I guess, would be melee builds : they are easy and overpowered, but I never use them, because they don't seem fun to me.

Jackhammer just doesn't fit to my playstyle anymore, but remains a great weapon, particularly on a MAD build, I guess (Gunrunner also blocks WK, but... well, I'd say MAD, at least, has benefits. That's just my point of view, of course :)
I hardly use something else than a regular shotgun now. Bullets seem too weak, rockets are mainly useful to jump or gib, and I keep plasma for hot situations, since it consumes too fast and need stupid levels in EE to work, while shotties don't. This doesn't mean I consider plasma guns, RL, or BFG suck, but only that I don't see why I'd use them when a shotgun can do all the work, at a "cheaper" cost.

@Sereg
Of course you wouldn't go MAc betting you'll find it... but what if you find it on a MAc build ? You'll trash it xD ?
And btw, you're not forced to rush a mastery. My current build is masterless, and it works pretty well. Your build won't block anything if you don't choose to... It's all up to you.

[skarczew]

Using 3 shell boxes for CoS... just explain me why you used a jackhammer in that level ! I cleared several mortuaries with jackye and 3 shell boxes...

Against Agony and its spawn.

So, what d'you conclude, that Jackhammer sucks ? I guess Frag shotgun and Charch's null pointer are better.

It is like Minigun few releases ago - good on paper, mostly useless in reality.

Why ? Anti-grav boots are great, insane... and I prefer crafting nanomachic weapons. Power armor is great too, and I hardly ever craft one for the same reason...
An even better example, I guess, would be melee builds : they are easy and overpowered, but I never use them, because they don't seem fun to me.

And that is why you are not 2Dev ;) .

[Sambojin]

I'm just not sure the Jackhammer needs to be changed so it works with MAc. It'd be a bit weird in MAc's description. "Only uses 1 ammo per burst with all rapid-fire weapons..... and the Jackhammer as well, for no reason?!?". Although, I will concede that shottyman reads a little bit like that these days. God SM is good these days :)

There's also the fact that it sort of does work with MAc, just not with the free ammo bit. You've got Rel(2), there's nothing stopping you choosing SM at any point you want. To me, that's a fully working shotgun. So MAc and the Jackhammer work fine, you just have to carry ammo for it. Sort of like with every other build in the game.
 
In fact, it's pretty hard to think of any build that the jackhammer doesn't work with. It's the best shotgun in the game, even if it is a bit ammo-hungry. I'm not sure what you see as wrong with it. It's the best shotgun in the game, and you think it should be better with one mastery?
 
Sorry, what was the question again?

[Sambojin]

But just so I actually contribute something to the discussion, I think that A, F and S mods should do something on shotguns.

Firestorm mods were "meant to" raise damage multipliers on DB shotties, except DB shotties didn't even have enough ammo in them for their x3 multiplier, so they got changed. I slapped an F-mod on one once, back when they were as rare as hen's teeth. (8d3)x5. Booyah! Then I found out that it didn't actually do anything. You would not believe how heartbroken that made me.

So can we have A, S and F mods doing something on shotguns instead of a MAc/Jackhammer change?
 
Discuss and de-rail...........

[Sereg]

It'd be a bit weird in MAc's description. "Only uses 1 ammo per burst with all rapid-fire weapons..... and the Jackhammer for no reason?!?".

Why add that second bit? Jackhammer *is* a rapid-fire weapon.

As far as Shottyman, I've determined that it's simply not worthwhile in a game that takes you to level 25 with a MAc start to the build. In a standard game, maybe, but I'm finding I'm still coming up short on the skills I want even after excluding Shottyman.

I think it should be better with this one mastery only because this mastery should apply to it, and somehow doesn't. In fact, that mastery's prerequisites actually make it worse by dropping it from 3 bursts to two before reloading.

The question is, why is there a rapid-fire weapon that is disadvantaged by a rapid-fire trait's prereqs, and fails to receive the same benefit from it that every other rapid-fire weapon gets?

At your second post, I would also like to see those mods work more broadly - not just with shotguns, but maybe with melee as well. What about an F modded chainsaw that attacked in a cone(albeit for only one square in each direction), or an S modded ripper that did piercing damage?

[Sambojin]

It's just a lot of annoying coding for one specific weapon with one specific build. TH will still make the jackhammer "suck" (read as: be awesome) in any other build, but it'll be especially awesome with MAc. Scarily so.

I guess if Kornel wanted to make a new class of weapons, remove the Jackhammer from the shotgun group, dump it in the new group and give that group's definitions that let it MAc, MAD, MSh, TH and SM and work like a shotgun, he could. It's just a lot of work for one weapon that "sucks" (again, read as: is awesome).

Then again, me wanting mods to do stuff on shotguns is just as much work, yet also opens up requests like "Why doesn't my sniper-mod work on a blue armour?". So maybe you have a point.
 

[Sereg]

Well, Sniper and Firestorm are specifically designated for weapons only, as Onyx is designated for Armor only, so adding a Sniper Weapon Pack to a piece of armor wouldn't be logical no matter how you looked at it. Chainsaws and shotguns are still weapons, at least. I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch of their intended functions to make them work with weapons that don't technically have ways to match those functions - although Firestorm on shotguns could logically be made to work.

And I think you're misunderstanding me when I'm talking about changes to the Jackhammer. I'm not asking that it be made to work with every mastery for every weapons type. I just want it to work with the masteries that affect the groups it already belongs to. MAD should work, since that's a shotgun trait, and Jackhammer is a Shotgun. MAc should work because Jackhammer is a Rapid-fire weapon, and for the same reason that TH already works - Jackhammer fires bursts. TH makes bursts fire additional rounds, and MAc makes bursts cost a single round. One already works, yet for some reason, the other doesn't. That's all I'm questioning.

[Fanta Hege]

adding a Sniper Weapon Pack to a piece of armor wouldn't be logical no matter how you looked at it.

It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.

[Sereg]

Lol.

[Evilpotatoe]

Why add that second bit? Jackhammer *is* a rapid-fire weapon.

uh ? And so is double shotty, I guess ?
I'm not sure it should work with TH, but don't tell us it's a rapid fire weapon... anyway, with shell boxes or SM, it doesn't make a big difference.

(...)it's simply not worthwhile in a game that takes you to level 25(...)

"not worthwhile" is your personal point of view. Anyway, don't take Ao666 as a reference to consider a weapon's worth... I'm afraid most weapons would suck with such calculations.

It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.

That ! is a great idea. I love it.
Well, more seriousely, every weapon pack should have a (useful) effect on every kind of weapon. S on shotguns already enables a rather good assembly, but I think it could reduce damage dropoff with distance by a few %. I'd ask for 1.5%, which looks like a good number to me, but such a change would require testing, anyway.

[thelaptop]

We could you know, nerf Jackhammer...

I prefer the SSG anyway after all, and tend to use MAD more than MAc.

[skarczew]

uh ? And so is double shotty, I guess ?
I'm not sure it should work with TH, but don't tell us it's a rapid fire weapon...

Mein Gott...

The Pancor Corporation Jackhammer is a 12-gauge, gas-operated automatic shotgun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer

A double-barreled shotgun is a shotgun with two parallel barrels, allowing two shots to be fired in quick succession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barreled_shotgun

anyway, with shell boxes or SM, it doesn't make a big difference.

No, there is totally no difference between 2 shots and 9 shots before reloading.


Btw. DoomRL got a design bug: Pancor got bigger ammo capacity in reality (10-shot ammo cassette, instead of 9 DoomRL-like).

[Evilpotatoe]

Mein Gott...

I wonder if my post was confuse, but you clearly missed the sarcasm part.

And when I spoke of little difference with SM or a box, I meant, for Jackhammer : 2 or 3 shots between reloads doesn't change much. (10 ammo magazine would be cool, though)

@thelaptop
I agree with you... but I still think regular (moddable) shotguns are often more interesting, outside MAD.
I'd personally add a single shoot option to the Jackhammer, so that it really rocks, but I'm aware it doesn't "need" it, and already has enough potential as is.
It's just that I find it sad that I didn't bother grabbing the last ones I found... since a normal P[1-3]-modded shotty seems better to me.


Anyway, I guess this discussion should probably have reached some Godwin point a few pages ago, since it doesn't seem constructive anymore.
Anyone wanna talk wolfRL ? :p

[Sereg]

Everyone who disagrees with me on this is a supporter of genocide.

Godwin point reached ;)

"not worthwhile" is your personal point of view. Anyway, don't take Ao666 as a reference to consider a weapon's worth... I'm afraid most weapons would suck with such calculations.

You will note that I did, in fact, mention it was personal opinion just before you abbreviated my quote ;)

[...]I've determined that it's simply not worthwhile[...]

The reason I use 666 as a reference point is because that's the only place I've ever found Jackhammer =P in a normal game, it simply isn't going to be available. It would be fair to say this holds true for every unique, however, and trying to make them all worthwhile there wouldn't be an efficient use of time. Again, the main reason I'm on about Jackhammer specifically is that it's a rapid-fire weapon that doesn't benefit from the only true rapid-fire mastertrait(yet is somehow affected by the rapid-fire prerequisite traits, and I've already explained why I don't feel that's necessarily a positive). I'd go on about how the double and super shotguns don't qualify as rapidfire because their "burst" empties the entire magazine, and while it's calculated successively, that isn't how a double shotgun actually works(unless you singly pull each trigger, but we have alt F for that), while it *is* how the Jackhammer(and other autoshotguns, like the AA-12) actually work, but you've already admitted that comparison was sarcasm, so I'll leave it at that.

@thelaptop
I agree with you... but I still think regular (moddable) shotguns are often more interesting, outside MAD.
I'd personally add a single shoot option to the Jackhammer, so that it really rocks, but I'm aware it doesn't "need" it, and already has enough potential as is.
It's just that I find it sad that I didn't bother grabbing the last ones I found... since a normal P[1-3]-modded shotty seems better to me.

I find it sad as well, since a normal tac shotgun seems better to me from an ammo conservation perspective(as I generally use shotguns from doorways near walls and blow people away one shot at a time as they approach, which makes the Jackhammer's burst less effective then single shots from a combat, tactical, or assault shotgun, since each shot knocks the target back farther, does less damage, and still uses a shell), and plasma rifles, hyperblasters, nuke plasmas, or laser rifles - or hell, even a gatling gun or burst chaingun - better from a rapidfire perspective, since I can snipe with them.

Now, a MAc affected Jackhammer would actually be a slightly better(as far as ammo consumption relates to damage output) shotgun option then tactical, if one were to be lucky enough to find it, and unlike the rapidfire weapons, can't be made to generate its own ammo, so an ammo stack or several would still need to be carried.

Doesn't seem too terribly unbalanced to me.