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Author Topic: Change armor "damaged" thresholds  (Read 13243 times)

shark20061

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Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« on: June 27, 2013, 19:18 »

I'm posting this here to get opinions on an idea I had and some applications of it.

The idea is to allow each armor to set its own "damaged" and "severely damaged" states (the point at which the armor loses half and three-quarters of its protection and resistances).  Right now, all armors go damaged at 50 and severely damaged at 25, regardless of their maximum durability.

This is mainly as a benefit to modders, but I had one application for this: to nerf Malek's Armor very slightly by making it go damaged at 75 and severely damaged at 37.  (Consequentially, if you like this idea and know of anything else that could use this treatment, feel free to make mention of it :)  ).
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Sereg

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 21:09 »

I've died more times on 666 games to Malek's breaking then for any other reason - I'd say it's dangerous enough as is.

Out of curiousity, does the set effect stop when it gets damaged? Or does that require it to go to zero?

I suppose if you wanted to change this so that high max health armors like gothic would go damaged at 100%/50%, that might make sense, but keep in mind they also repair at the same rate as a 100% armor, so maybe balance that by increasing repair from armor shards based on armor max health?

Otherwise I don't really see a need for this particular change - arbitrary damage points seem a bit counterintuitive and not especially useful to me.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 21:09 »

Problem here is how to communicate it to the player without cluttering the interface. The current system has the benefit that everyone knows what to expect. Solution suggestions?
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Sereg

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 21:13 »

Problem here is how to communicate it to the player without cluttering the interface. The current system has the benefit that everyone knows what to expect. Solution suggestions?

This is also true - part of what I meant by changing it being counterintuitive. Being 50% effective at 50% damage and 25% effective at 75% damage makes pretty good sense.

If the goal here is to nerf the Inquisitor's set, I have a few suggestions(though I kinda like it as is, so I'd rather not see it nerfed, lol): First, cap the regeneration of the armor - say by having it only repair itself if it's below 50%, requiring the player to maintain it with armor shards and megaspheres to retain the full(oh boy, 3 whole armor) protection value. Second, nerf the fire resistance to 95% - still very powerful, but not absolutely powerful. Third, cut the speed boost. Fourth, increase the rarity.

I don't think the armor by itself is too terribly OP - yes, it regenerates itself, and yes, in the set, it grants immunity to fire, but it has a low protection value and its resistances aren't great without the set effect. It's much weaker, in terms of actual damage reduction, then quite a lot of 100/666 alternatives.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 21:18 by Sereg »
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 21:19 »

If the goal here is to nerf the Inquisitor's set, I have a few suggestions(though I kinda like it as is, so I'd rather not see it nerfed, lol): First, cap the regeneration of the armor - say by having it only repair itself if it's below 50%, requiring the player to maintain it with armor shards and megaspheres to retain the full(oh boy, 3 whole armor) protection value.
Actually this itself might be a good idea, and might be enough.
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shark20061

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 21:25 »

Great idea, I'll add regen limit in as a property of items.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 21:27 »

Great idea, I'll add regen limit in as a property of items.

There should already be a basis for this with medical armors.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 22:04 »

These two different types of regeneration are applied in different parts of the code. (Medical armor regen is in Lua, the item's regen is not).

The property is now implemented, but I haven't modified the armor's blueprint yet.  Any other concerns or considerations before the armor gets changed?
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Fusilliban

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 02:52 »

Could set current protection to ceil(armor.protection * max(100, armor.currentdurability)/100).  That'd make bulk and onyx packs even cooler than they are now.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 06:51 »

I kinda like the idea, but why not nerf this insane suit a little more ?
3 armor points, with resistance to plasma/acid/fire, AND great movespeed boost looks like the best possible suit to me.
Sure, cerberi are fun, but they make you slow, and don't have those 3 flat protection points. Also, they don't regenerate, and O-modding them prevents from using an A or P instead.

The set bonus is really OP. Honestly, I didn't understand why the game's best armor has been buffed with this, while some other (really correct) armors could have been instead.
Why not put necro-boots, which give some ms and protection, and regenerate draining your health, but gib corpses you walk over for vampyre-like result when you get the set ? I'm sure most other unique armors could have fun pairs too.


Btw, (all) armors could also lose 25% efficiency when slightly damaged.

@Sereg : made my post more clear. No, plz, not 3 immunity sets, or then, make them useless for anything else... but this would suck. Just Neeeeeeeerf that damn malek !
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 08:01 by Evilpotatoe »
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Sereg

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 07:08 »

3 armors, with resistance to plasma/acid/fire

I like this idea. Why not other sets with immunity to acid/plasma to force you to choose?

Why not put necro-boots, which give some ms and protection, and regenerate draining your health, but gib corpses you walk over for vampyre-like result when you get the set ? I'm sure most other unique armors could have fun pairs too.

This also sounds awesome.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2013, 14:12 »

There're not many armors better than Malek's. Really, how many armors have +25% ms, +3 armor and regenerate? And no knockback increase. Same with boots.

And then aside from the fact that you move at 0.56 of normal(normal as with those unequipped) speed you also get fire immunity. Like, srsly??
I would understand if it were something like a MFa effect - with those high-speed equip you supposedly dodge explosions, but full flat immunity?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 14:15 by AlterAsc »
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2013, 17:17 »

Then again - how often do you find the full set in a normal game, outside of Ao100? Never happened to me, _even_ on Ao100 attempt. The set is_rare_ - and worth the luck.
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shark20061

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2013, 19:25 »

To be honest, rarity shouldn't be a counterbalance for power.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2013, 20:01 »

To be honest, rarity shouldn't be a counterbalance for power.

Hmm... I'm not entirely sure about that. In an MMO or something, sure, you don't want the top gear being luck based - you want it to be achievement based.

But in DoomRL, we could only do that if we unlocked new exotics and uniques as a player advanced in skill and experience rank, which doesn't seem like an ideal system, and in any case probably wouldn't work with the current theme very well.

So it seems like rarity is the only counterbalance to power we have available in the current model.

The way I see it, the Inquisitor set is so rare that it will only appear in 100s and 666s, and even in the first it's not guaranteed - I've managed complete 100 runs without one of the pieces. I also don't see it as a coincidence that 100 and 666 runs are the ones where the stats the set provides are especially helpful, to the point of being almost essential.

What I would like to see are more options for dealing with the progressively more ridiculous spawns as century challenges go deeper - more rare sets to give you options. Properly modded phaseshift gear is the only other alternative I can think of in the current game, and more options that would be very rare in normal games but almost guaranteed in 666 would give more options for surviving without relying on one "OP" option.

What I wouldn't like to see is one of the only viable options nerfed without providing alternatives.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2013, 20:15 »

To be honest, rarity shouldn't be a counterbalance for power.
I thought so too. Until I saw nerfing in action. It's the fun in the game when you sometimes get OP equipment, which is OP at least for some time. This is why Diablo 2 > Diablo 3. The nerfing done to balance the real money auction has killed the single player fun of the game.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 08:41 »

To be honest, rarity shouldn't be a counterbalance for power.
It shouldn't be the exclusive counterbalance, but a game that is allowed to say "because fuck you, that's why" due to extreme RNG should also be allowed to give you awesome things due to extreme RNG.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 10:26 »

I still don't think it's a good idea to have an item combo which, among other things, makes you impervious to cyberdemons...
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 13:16 »

I still don't think it's a good idea to have an item combo which, among other things, makes you impervious to cyberdemons...
How often has somebody gotten the full Inquisitor set before the Tower of Babel in a normal game? I seriously doubt it happens with ANY level of frequency.

That said, I know the debate is w.r.t. to Ao100 and Ao666 games. It's pretty much a given that somebody's going to get some nutty gear together in either of those runs. Lava Armor + Eviro/Cerb. Boots + Nanomac Rocket/Napalm Launcher, Cerberus Onyx Armor, Cybernano Cybernetic Armor, Nanoskin Energy-Shielded Vest.... I could go on, but the point is that any player who knows their stuff can put together some truly crazy crap given effectively infinite rolls on base gear and mods.

Hell, from a balance standpoint, I'd argue that uniques in of themselves aren't even the biggest concern! A P-modded Nanoskin Energy-Shielded Vest might be the best Ao100/666 "deep-dive" armor- 3 points of base protection, and 75% resist against plasma, fire, and acid. Run the numbers- it's superior to Cybernano Cybernetic against non-ballistic attacks, and the latter when P-modded offers an insane 13 points of armor, plus 50% ballistic resists.

Oh, also- your precious Inqusitor set won't last long if you get cornered by Bruisers or Nightmare Arachnotrons. Just saying.

On-topic, I do think the current durability system works fine. It's intuitive and fairly balanced. I don't think it's worth coming up with an entirely new system to be applied to a few high-end armors.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2013, 18:09 »

Considering that I typically only play standard games, and I've found the entire Inquisitor's Set only once or twice (and once not until after clearing the Vaults), this entire discussion strikes me as odd. I could understand if the set effect was on a single piece of armor that keeps popping up and causing ezmodo mortems, but what's wrong with having the RNG throw you a bone every rare once in a while?

I don't really like the idea of balancing things based on Ao100 and Ao666.

Edit: Speaking of which, I don't see the Inquisitor's set as anything resembling a free win either, but that might just be because I play only play on UV these days.  I've had armors *shredded* by packs of Barons almost instantly.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 18:11 by Kristopher »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 02:03 »

Quote
Hell, from a balance standpoint, I'd argue that uniques in of themselves aren't even the biggest concern!
I think that's Malek's problem.
Most unique items have drawbacks : Necroarmor gives great ms and 6 armor, but drains your life, Lava is annoying to repair, shielded is very specific, cybernetic is cursed, and medical... sucks.
Malek ? Shines on all points : good protections, good ms, and regenerates quickly, for free.
Even enviroboots, which are 5% slower than A-modded cerberi boots, are not interresting on angel of grind.

And it's the same for weapons : Trigun or BFG10K have drawbacks, one with its reload speed and the other with friendly fire.

Malek and its boots pair are just too good.
I'm already happy enough when I find a necro, phaseshift, or nuclear plasma rifle !

Should rarity be a counterbalance for power ? Well, this is a roguelike, so of course, average items (vanilla weapons and armors, etc.) have to be common, while some better ones need to be rare.
But I hate items witch completely change the game, like Malek's ones, or that stupid DS.

Currently, they usually occur late enough, so it doesn't change much the game, since the hard part is Phobos. But I hope we'll fear hell again in a few versions, and the problem of OP stuff making it a cake will come back again.
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 08:52 »

stop! what the problem? They say that Inquisitor Set overpowered? But it not guaranteed even at Ao100. Oh, at Arch666? well... in such not easy and long challenge why not?
Malek's armor not overpowered at all.
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Sereg

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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 10:28 »

I think that's Malek's problem.
Most unique items have drawbacks : Necroarmor gives great ms and 6 armor, but drains your life, Lava is annoying to repair, shielded is very specific, cybernetic is cursed, and medical... sucks.
Malek ? Shines on all points : good protections, good ms, and regenerates quickly, for free.
Even enviroboots, which are 5% slower than A-modded cerberi boots, are not interresting on angel of grind.

And it's the same for weapons : Trigun or BFG10K have drawbacks, one with its reload speed and the other with friendly fire.

Malek and its boots pair are just too good.
I'm already happy enough when I find a necro, phaseshift, or nuclear plasma rifle !

Should rarity be a counterbalance for power ? Well, this is a roguelike, so of course, average items (vanilla weapons and armors, etc.) have to be common, while some better ones need to be rare.
But I hate items witch completely change the game, like Malek's ones, or that stupid DS.

Currently, they usually occur late enough, so it doesn't change much the game, since the hard part is Phobos. But I hope we'll fear hell again in a few versions, and the problem of OP stuff making it a cake will come back again.

I won't deny you may have a point, but I'm gonna point to your badge count again here.

What seems easy to you isn't necessarily easy to the average player - you're playing the game at a much higher skill level. Suffice it to say that what's balanced for you isn't necessarily balanced for the rest of us, and vice versa.

It's also worth pointing out that you have the option of voluntarily ignoring content that makes the game feel too easy - think the Inquisitor's set is OP? Don't use it. Think Dragonslayer is too strong? Leave it on the ground. You can do this for any challenge you choose. On the other end of the scale, I can't voluntarily ignore things that make the game feel too hard. I can play on a lower difficulty level, sure - but I can't do that for all challenges.

Voluntarily ignoring content is how most roguelike challenge games work outside of DoomRL - this is the only game I'm aware of that provides a native support structure for challenge games.

Though now that I think about it, maybe we could have an Angel that blocks uniques/exotics/assemblies?
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 13:25 »

It's also worth pointing out that you have the option of voluntarily ignoring content that makes the game feel too easy - think the Inquisitor's set is OP? Don't use it. Think Dragonslayer is too strong? Leave it on the ground. You can do this for any challenge you choose. On the other end of the scale, I can't voluntarily ignore things that make the game feel too hard. I can play on a lower difficulty level, sure - but I can't do that for all challenges.

Voluntarily ignoring content is how most roguelike challenge games work outside of DoomRL - this is the only game I'm aware of that provides a native support structure for challenge games.

This from the guy who was telling everyone to nerf OC because he kept spamming it?
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Re: Change armor "damaged" thresholds
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 16:39 »

See, I don't think it's too easy - I think it's just right ;) but as the way I earn most of my badges isn't intended, it should probably be nerfed in the next version to prevent noobs like me from having badge counts like mine =P
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