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Author Topic: A stack of questions.  (Read 3191 times)

Aki

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A stack of questions.
« on: September 28, 2013, 22:52 »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A few early game questions and one late-game.

I've tried for about 30 hours of actual ingame time and more thinking time but haven't come up with a solution to any of these issues.

The first is Hell Knights on floor 3 of AoB/AoMr. You don't have anything decent to tackle them with at this stage, at least that i'm aware of.

For AoMr, even without the HK having armor and SoG 2 (Best scenario at dlev 2), you're going to need 9 shots on average to kill a hell knight, and with their 110% speed you can't run rings around them at that stage. Even with a scout, at best you'll match them move for move (I'm not sure if their 110% speed is at 0.91 or rounds down to 0.9), and if you spawn in a level with 2-3 HKs then running to get away from them isn't a viable option. In addition, trying to cornershoot them doesn't always work, because for some reason unlike Cacos and Mancubi, instead of moving down to hug the wall to get closer to you they tend to move out in the open so they can shoot you. This behavior also applies to Revs, Viles, and Barons, but they're less of a problem.

For AoB, you can gift-drop and lure them so you don't have to deal with their projectile attack (unless you start in a wide open space), but then you still have to face them in melee and get torn apart by their base +6 accuracy (so on UV/N! running does nothing) 1d3+6. You can't run circles around them with a combat knife again, because of their speed.

Both of these also apply to demons but to a lesser extent - it's much easier to deal with demons on AoMr because of their AI and demons are only 25 hp with 1d3+5.

I don't think it's just up to the RNG and has something to do with my lack of skill as a player, so does anyone have any tips?

How do you deal with corpses on Nightmare? What i've tried to do earlygame is just pool them into one area but I haven't had much luck reliably stacking them - they don't go where I want them to go and you can't gib them with rockets because you don't have a rocket launcher. You *can* get one from the arena but that still means you have to do the arena first - which requires you to deal with mid-tier enemies.

I recall the arena spawning on floor 3 during one game of 0.9.9.7. I believe that it's fixed on 2 now because that's what the wiki says and I recall all the other levels being fixed, so is my memory simply failing me? Just checking.

A final question: How do you combat knife throw the AoD to death? I've thought about it and the notion of having more runspeed then it makes sense, but I can't practically see how you could within the small space of the cathedral and the angel pursuing you directly (meaning diagonal movement), making it hard to circle it to pick up your knife.

Any help is much appreciated because i've been mulling over these for ages and have made absolutely no progress.
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2birds1stone

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2013, 00:00 »

The best answer I've found for AoB is to not deal with them at all; just run for exits. AoMr's not so hopeless; while it does take nine shots average to kill HKs, you can take those nine shots in a relatively short period of time (SoG2 with technical mod). Also, you'll oftentimes (typically?) get Dualgunner midway through the arena (unless you're playing tech), which makes things quite manageable. Having said that, Angel games aren't always fair (AoB spawn near demon pack).

Demons in AoB are a case of more running, as far as I can tell.

Chokepoints are the best way to reliably stack corpses. Also, against weaker enemies, you can aggro them with one shot, then step behind a doorway to kill them with a second. I've recently taken to carrying a shotty and a single stack of shells on all my Nightmare! runs so I can golf enemies around the map when their corpses are in those locations from which you can't seem to dispose of them.

Quote
I recall the arena spawning on floor 3 during one game of 0.9.9.7. I believe that it's fixed on 2 now because that's what the wiki says and I recall all the other levels being fixed, so is my memory simply failing me? Just checking.
Failing you, most likely.

No-one ever said you have to do your speed-abuse inside the cathedral proper.

EDIT: Questions stack now? How many per stack? Does the backpack increase this number?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 00:14 by 2birds1stone »
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2013, 00:31 »

The best answer I've found for AoB is to not deal with them at all; just run for exits. AoMr's not so hopeless; while it does take nine shots average to kill HKs, you can take those nine shots in a relatively short period of time (SoG2 with technical mod). Also, you'll oftentimes (typically?) get Dualgunner midway through the arena (unless you're playing tech), which makes things quite manageable. Having said that, Angel games aren't always fair (AoB spawn near demon pack).

Yeah. I was hoping to not rely on the RNG for that technical modpack. There's also the reload time to consider but it's not THAT bad. I'd prefer to do things as RNGless as possible and right now I seem to be relying on it.

In regards to AoB, i'm going for UV/100% kills AoB so not killing them isn't an option. :s

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Demons in AoB are a case of more running, as far as I can tell.

Okay, thanks.

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Chokepoints are the best way to reliably stack corpses. Also, against weaker enemies, you can aggro them with one shot, then step behind a doorway to kill them with a second. I've recently taken to carrying a shotty and a single stack of shells on all my Nightmare! runs so I can golf enemies around the map when their corpses are in those locations from which you can't seem to dispose of them.

Oh yeah, that'd work well on doors. Although, I seem to be really paranoid on Nightmare and run for the stairs ASAP. I also don't quite see how it'd work in the arena ;_;...

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No-one ever said you have to do your speed-abuse inside the cathedral proper.

Ah, now THAT makes sense. ;)

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EDIT: Questions stack now? How many per stack? Does the backpack increase this number?

Ask lappy C:

Thank you for your responses!
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ZicherCZ

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2013, 00:38 »

I'll take the AoMr part from a MSs point if view:
Positioning and SoG3 (which you're very likely to receive during level 3 even without Arena on UV) are your best friends. Play it safe - find a safe cornershooting spot and fire as much as you can. With SoG3 and a T-modded pistol you get 0.32s firing time, so unless the HK is already close, you have good chances of killing it without a scratch. Even if it gets into melee range, it will still attack once per your three attacks - make the most of it, but still be ready to take some as well. Also have another loaded pistol in your Prepared slot - switching them is a it faster than reloading.
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2013, 03:03 »

Mhm, but unless it's worth taking the extra point in SoG compared to Dualgunner then I don't know how that'd work for other builds. As in taking the master trait one level later. Because I don't think you should be tied down to one build/trait for any difficulty, yeah? Like, there should be other ways to make it work.

Sorry if i'm confusing, little tipsy atm.
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ZicherCZ

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2013, 04:20 »

Well, in AoMr you _are_ pretty much tied to SoG, and as I mentioned - this was a MSs point of view. MSs prevents DG, so that would be a moot point anyway.
Of course, there's little point in taking SoG3 if you're not a Tech, DG is way preferable for earlier master trait. But that's not a question of a char that just arrives to the Arena anyway.
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 05:00 »

Well, in AoMr you _are_ pretty much tied to SoG, and as I mentioned - this was a MSs point of view. MSs prevents DG, so that would be a moot point anyway.
Of course, there's little point in taking SoG3 if you're not a Tech, DG is way preferable for earlier master trait. But that's not a question of a char that just arrives to the Arena anyway.

Yeah but I was talking about other builds and other traits.
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2birds1stone

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 17:52 »

A lot of challenges tie you to a trait, and if they don't, there's generally still a small number of options which are clearly better than the rest. Angel of Shotgunnery, while probably quite doable without Reloader, is going to be substantially harder (sure, you can take SoB3 for guaranteed knockback, and Finesse to offset your reload time, but this simply does not come close to the ability to move-reload).

Angel of Marksmanship ties you to SoG, because when you can only use pistols, SoG becomes Finesse and SoB rolled into the one trait; it is two traits for the price of one. All three pistol masteries seem too good to ignore, but I suppose that if you went the Dualgunner route, you could exclusively buy SoG, SoB, and Fin for masterless.
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 19:19 »

A lot of challenges tie you to a trait, and if they don't, there's generally still a small number of options which are clearly better than the rest. Angel of Shotgunnery, while probably quite doable without Reloader, is going to be substantially harder (sure, you can take SoB3 for guaranteed knockback, and Finesse to offset your reload time, but this simply does not come close to the ability to move-reload).

Angel of Marksmanship ties you to SoG, because when you can only use pistols, SoG becomes Finesse and SoB rolled into the one trait; it is two traits for the price of one. All three pistol masteries seem too good to ignore, but I suppose that if you went the Dualgunner route, you could exclusively buy SoG, SoB, and Fin for masterless.

Hm, okay. Let me explain what I mean now that i'm thinking a little clearer.

By "not being tied into one build" what I was really saying was "tied into one master trait". For example, you can do AoB with MVm, MMB, or MBm all with around the same amount of success. Likewise, you can do AoSh with MSh, MAD, and MFa all with around the same amount of success. By relying on MSs to stack corpses and get the advantage early-game I feel like it'd be an unnecessary crutch and would make playing on N! with other builds more difficult, then anything.

What I was referring to about the SoG/DG thing was whether it was worth taking SoGx3 then DG -> HRx2 -> DM -> MGk (as an example) for the advantage earlier on, and in retrospect it's probably not worth it.

I will add in one question though about nightmare - How are you supposed to complete special levels and challenges like the Anomaly with the nightmare monsters added in? For example, the Anomoly - around 30 Nightmare imps, cacos, and demons that respawn and have extra movespeed is a tall ask at that stage of the game unless you get very lucky with the RNG. What would be the best method of doing this without relying on the RNG? Keeping in mind that doing the Arena isn't always practical - especially on challenge modes. There has to be some way that you can minimize the impact of the RNG. And the Halls of Carnage for example - One column per 2 seconds and 14 nightmare cacodemons instead of lost skulls? When I ran it on UV with pistols one-hitting them with like 0.3s firing time, the lava still nearly caught up to me. I don't get it.
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2birds1stone

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2013, 02:06 »

I would think that N! AoMr would be completable with MGK and MBD, though I haven't managed N! AoMr myself. MSs is probably the best of the pistol traits (at the cost of a difficult early game), but I can't see why MGK wouldn't be viable, especially given that respawning formers and imps become free reloads. I've got no experience with MBD, but it'd certainly deal with tanky enemies if they're a problem for you (holy shit, can you empty an entire GCB clip in one burst with extra shots coming from both Triggerhappy and MBD?)

The Anomoly requires lucky phasing or enough movespeed that you can get to safety before making your shots. As for Halls of Carnage, I think your best bet is a shotgun; I wouldn't be going there in N! AoMr (that's not to say it's impossible, just that it's meant to be difficult).
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 04:42 »

I would think that N! AoMr would be completable with MGK and MBD, though I haven't managed N! AoMr myself. MSs is probably the best of the pistol traits (at the cost of a difficult early game), but I can't see why MGK wouldn't be viable, especially given that respawning formers and imps become free reloads. I've got no experience with MBD, but it'd certainly deal with tanky enemies if they're a problem for you (holy shit, can you empty an entire GCB clip in one burst with extra shots coming from both Triggerhappy and MBD?)

The Anomoly requires lucky phasing or enough movespeed that you can get to safety before making your shots. As for Halls of Carnage, I think your best bet is a shotgun; I wouldn't be going there in N! AoMr (that's not to say it's impossible, just that it's meant to be difficult).

I guess it's just my inexperience with Nightmare, then. x.x

As for the Anomoly and HoC, I meant even on standard Nightmare. It just seems so unrealistic, I don't even know how you could complete it.
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Uranium

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 08:59 »

A final question: How do you combat knife throw the AoD to death? I've thought about it and the notion of having more runspeed then it makes sense, but I can't practically see how you could within the small space of the cathedral and the angel pursuing you directly (meaning diagonal movement), making it hard to circle it to pick up your knife.

You can run around the Cathedral in its entirety, there's a path surrounding the lava lake the Cathedral sits in. I imagine there's also some finicky-as-all-hell way to do it within the cathedral, but you'd need a really high movespeed to be able to lure it properly and not get torn apart.
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Sambojin

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 20:33 »

Just as a point, masterless pistol builds are still very viable for all classes. MGK and MSs are still great, but so are things like Jug (essentially a free reload for your pistol (more if not doing challenges and doing weapon quick switch abuse)), Int(2) is the joy that it always is and HR and TaN do their normal thing. EE is exceptional in masterless pistol builds as well, but SoG and DG tend to come first.

But as your questions are centred around AoMr in UV, it makes it a bit of a harder question to answer on "how to win". Actually, just saying "I'd like to not rely on the RNG" makes it a hard question to answer. If you don't want to rely on it, do lots of runs, otherwise it'll throw you curve balls that no amount of advice can fix.

Try a SoG->SoG->Fin->Jug build some time. It's kind of like mini-MGK-without-DG, but earlier. As you (hopefully) pick up more types of pistols, primary/secondary them and switch around as ammo is required. DG does offer more DPS, Fin isn't half as good as SoG, but Jug sometimes makes it worth it. B/P/T ahoy later in the game, modding the hell out of your pistols with WK. But really, SoG can get you through the arena, it's just not easy (plus you do need a little luck on enemy spawns and health/medikits before it).

Are you hitting "run" a fair bit? When things get in close, sometimes the extra move speed and dodging is good enough to make up for the -2 accuracy, but it depends on the situation.

Actually, saying that you'd like to 100% an AoB run on UV or N! makes it hard to offer specific advice as well. What advice can someone give you on level 2-3 when there's 3 HKs bearing down on you? Don't die? Or just die and restart? Sometimes roguelikes are cruel, sometimes you just die. It really doesn't matter how good of a player you are, sometimes you lose regardless.
 
It sounds like you're well on your way to beating these particular challenges, but it often doesn't happen every time. Try masterless pistol runs, and pray to the RNG that it throws just enough, but not too much, at you early on in AoB. Probably not the advice you're looking for.......
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 20:46 by Sambojin »
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Aki

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 20:38 »

Actually, I got my Marksman platinum a while ago - the only thing that I had to do was actually take the arena which I mostly skipped, and the extra exp from that made hell knights a joke.

Thanks for your tips! Masterless builds certainly are viable as well, i'm thinking of trying to use one for 100% Eagerness platinum.

And yeah, sometimes i'm aware that you just die - on one AoI run I spawned literally in the middle of a cacodemon cave - and with no powerups (and no phases due to being on AoI). And you just die.

What i'm asking in a nutshell, is what general tips can I get from people to minimize the impact of the RNG and maximize the impact of my skill as a player on these specific challenges/difficulties?
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Sambojin

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Re: A stack of questions.
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 21:10 »

Well, I edited my post a little so there was some actual advice in there. But since you're doing AoB runs as well, the best advice is to learn when to run. For Aob and AoMr. That 20% movespeed & dodge increase is the only "tactical" option you have over HKs and faster enemies in the early game. It is somewhat RNG dependant, but eventually you'll look at every medikit and health globe as a run-booster with a small health side-effect rather than the other way around. They're also great for any run, but very important on the "harder" challenges.
 
Tactic resets from globes and medikits are probably your most important finite resource in the early game. You can't guarantee how many you'll get, but you can decide where and when to use them. Thus, they're not entirely RNG dependant, even if the amount of them, the dodging chances and situations surrounding them are. The 20% movespeed is nicely static, so's when you hit TAB to use them. AoB is the best way to learn how important this is, but don't forget it for any challenge or game-type.

Incidently, there's a youTube video showing how to kill the angel of death in the cathedral with a throwing knife. Ring-a-ring-a-rosie style, but you do need a certain build for it (HR to the rescue. An armour-piercing knife wouldn't hurt either). 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 21:15 by Sambojin »
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