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[Sylph]

Hi,
I'm working on strongman platinum and diamond at the moment. I'm having trouble understanding what, exactly, the criteria are for this.
Reading previous posts, I've read conflicting ideas:

1. Any enemy dies while you are armed with a weapon fails you
2. You are allowed to punch enemies while you have a weapon armed, but they may not die by any other means.
3. Enemies who die on the turn you fire a weapon mean a fail

I'm wondering which of the above is true. I'm also wondering whether we're allowed to break crates (right-click on them with fists equipped), whether we can use right-clicking to punch people when we have no weapon equipped, whether monsters that die from acid/lava while I have a weapon equipped counts again me, etc.

Anyone know for certain which of these apply in the current version? It's frustrating that testing is so hard, because there's no record on my character sheet of whether I've broken the rules, and therefor can only test by winning games (which on AoOC HNTR might be a good way of testing, now that I think about it)
[edit - no it wouldn't. Too difficult to start out with fists only that deep, factoring deaths, would probably take longer than AoC runs overall]

playing for ages and being unsure whether I'm already disqualified is stressful! :D

[LuckyDee]

Here's what I believe is true:

1. Any enemy dies while you are armed with a weapon fails you

I think that should be "any enemy that dies by any means other than you punching them while you are armed with a weapon fails you"
I also think this is exactly what you meant, but I added it for completeness' sake.

2. You are allowed to punch enemies while you have a weapon armed, but they may not die by any other means.

Correct, see 1.

3. Enemies who die on the turn you fire a weapon mean a fail

Correct. They either a) die because you shoot them, which means a fail or b) die in circumstances listed under 2.

So I think all of your suggestions are true. I also fail to see where they conflict each other. This discussion makes me wonder whether nuking a level will also fail your run, and - if possibly so - whether it matters what type of weapon you are holding on the moment of impact.

Some more assumptions:

I'm also wondering whether we're allowed to break crates (right-click on them with fists equipped)

Unsure about the usage of the mouse, but it seems to have no relation to the Strongman badge as far as I can see. I'd even say that it's OK to shoot them to pieces with any weapon you can find, as long as no monster dies while you're holding it.

whether we can use right-clicking to punch people when we have no weapon equipped

Again, unsure about the mouse usage. As long as you're not holding a weapon, I believe you're free to do cartwheels and throw rose petals about, nothing could ever break your Strongman run.

whether monsters that die from acid/lava while I have a weapon equipped counts again me

See 2. again.

On a last note: I've been informed that it's OK to wound monsters with guns as long as you don't kill them with one. This is already implied by the entire summary above, but I thought I'd list it just to have everything covered.
Disclaimer: this is all based on hearsay and a small amount of trial and error, not on actual knowledge of the mechanics.

[thelaptop]

I'll put it in another way.  In the repo, we track deaths by "other things" separately, so that accidental environmental deaths do not count against you.  However, I don't see evidence that this behaviour is in 0.9.9.7, so the current (buggy) book keeping is in place.

[Tormuse]

If you want my advice, for fist-only challenges, keep your weapons unequipped at all times unless absolutely necessary.  That's how I played all of my successful fist-only games.  Any time I tried using weapons, I botched it and screwed up the run; it's just too much to keep track of.

(That's just my opinion, though; if you can manage it, then power to you!)  :)

[Sylph]

Turmuse - what would you deem 'absolutely necessary'?
I can't get through phobos 2 and the arena without at least shooting imps once to pull them over to me and finish them in 1-2 hits. I also don't have a chance of doing the arena without shooting demons and cacodemons.
Phobos 3 is similarly difficult, as are the first few hellknights.
A bit of guidance as to what absolutely necessary is would help me TONS!


What I'd really see as fair in a future version, is some kind of indication of whether or not we're still elligible. A kill list per weapon on some extended ingame stats would do the trick.

(The bad part is, I once had a run where I found a nano pack, constructed power armour, LOST the power armour, found ANOTHER nano pack, got ANOTHER power armour, 100% and hadn't killed a single monster without fists... Did the cathedral, compared the spear to the chainsaw for damage, and decided to keep the chainsaw for mastermind (figured spear looked like it might do too much damage to 'only wound him'), went down to the next level, hit the first former I saw, then heard the chainsaw sound effect! AARGH! :D)

[Sylph]

i just got my strongman diamond badge. :D
Took me 3 successful tries though, one of them might have attributed a kill to the chainsaw (but I doubt it).
Another has me completely stumped, almost never changed from fists, refused to use hellwave packs, shockwave packs, skulls, arena master's staff etc because I was scared of them disqualifying me. I have a feeling I *might* have been disqualified because, after using an overcharged plasma rifle, I never switched weapons before killing the cyberdemon/mastermind. (That is, I went down the stairs holding an overcharged plasma rifle, gave him the one and only volley from the weapon, then finished with my empty hands after the overcharged rifle dissapeared).



Interestingly, I was investigating the triggers for failing, by savescumming on a staircase, and checking character screen stats (namely 'total kills' vs 'melee kills') to check which kills were attributed to melee. Wierdly enough, an imp fireball killing a demon on the same turn that I shot (and hit) said demon with a pistol, did not disqualify me (that is it did not register a non-melee kill!). There's something weird going on, and I'm just glad to have finished so that it's not a 'weird' I need to deal with any more! :D

[Tormuse]

i just got my strongman diamond badge. :D

Ooh, congrats!  :D  Is there a mortem coming?  Or is that the game where you were save scumming and you'd rather not post it?

Turmuse - what would you deem 'absolutely necessary'?
I can't get through phobos 2 and the arena without at least shooting imps once to pull them over to me and finish them in 1-2 hits. I also don't have a chance of doing the arena without shooting demons and cacodemons.
Phobos 3 is similarly difficult, as are the first few hellknights.
A bit of guidance as to what absolutely necessary is would help me TONS!

Ah, I guess you and I have a different definition of "absolutely necessary."  ;)  In my Strongman Diamond game from the previous version, I skipped a majority of the special levels.  If you're trying to clear Hell's Arena, then you'll definitely have to use weapons a lot more than I did.  As it was, it was a while ago, but don't think I even used weapons at all in that game.  As for Hell Knights, avoid them unless you're berserk, either from a berserk pack or by shooting a barrel at point-blank range.  Alternatively, if there's a single Hell Knight (or even two of them?) and no one else is around that might get hit by stray shots, you can juggle them with the shotgun (preferably by corner-shooting) until they're at point-blank range and then punch them to finish them off.  Needless to say, you need to be very careful that you don't fire too many times and accidentally kill anyone when you're weakening them with your weapons.  I gave up trying to do it, but maybe you'll have better luck with it and you can disregard my advice to avoid it.  :)

[Sylph]

Ooh, congrats!  :D  Is there a mortem coming?  Or is that the game where you were save scumming and you'd rather not post it?

No, it wasn't the savescummed game. I savescummed after my first 'unfair' failure, to try to see if I could get down how exactly the mechanics worked. I failed to really identify anything of note, but then just got back on the road. I didn't post the mortem because it didn't feel worth discussing... I think I've done too many strongman runs (both 'successful' and dying) that they started to blend into one! Having said that, I've just typed 2 paragraphs about it that might be worth posting in the morten forum, if nothing else to help weaker players than myself (if there are any on these forums) get through the ordeal. So consider yourself a muse! Mortem is here:
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6842.0.html

Ah, I guess you and I have a different definition of "absolutely necessary."  ;)  In my Strongman Diamond game from the previous version, I skipped a majority of the special levels.  If you're trying to clear Hell's Arena, then you'll definitely have to use weapons a lot more than I did.

Yeah, I tried to skip the arena for my first few attempts, but actually found more success going for it, I found it's not too tricky if you get brute 3 before berserker.

As it was, it was a while ago, but don't think I even used weapons at all in that game.  As for Hell Knights, avoid them unless you're berserk, either from a berserk pack or by shooting a barrel at point-blank range.  Alternatively, if there's a single Hell Knight (or even two of them?) and no one else is around that might get hit by stray shots, you can juggle them with the shotgun (preferably by corner-shooting) until they're at point-blank range and then punch them to finish them off.  Needless to say, you need to be very careful that you don't fire too many times and accidentally kill anyone when you're weakening them with your weapons.  I gave up trying to do it, but maybe you'll have better luck with it and you can disregard my advice to avoid it.  :)

I wouldn't possibly have enough berserk pack luck to manage that strategy! In almost all my attempts I'd have to fight hell knights without berserk packs. I dealt with them exactly as you described - shotgun trap round a corner, use running mode if necessary, and finish them on melee. I actually found that risking the possibility of killing a target with a shotgun (like point-blank shotgunning 'wounded' demons/cacodemons, or 'heavily wounded' hellknights) results in a much better chance/time of success, than trying to 'play it safe'. That is, it's better to risk disqualifying yourself from the very small chance of killing a wounded demon with a shotgun, than it is to take extra damage from every demon you meet, which adds up.
I didn't try berserking myself from barrels. It's on my list of skills I need to learn. I understood that it would only be a good chance of berserk from acid barrels or laval barrels. Does it work on regular barrels too? i'm guessing it's suicidal to try without at least blue armour, or does the knockback bug make it safe even with green?
Oh, and regarding shotguns, despite attacking wounded demons, by far my most common failure was from killing a lost soul or former behind the demon you are shotgunning and out of sight range, particularly where barrels are involved. On that note, 'aimed shot' with a pistol, targetting it to travel into a wall if it fails to hit, is a huge help to this challenge, and I'd recommend this challenge to anyone, just to learn (as I did) the way the monster AI responds to taking minor damage - it's as important as gift dropping! Can't believe I hadn't realised it before!