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Author Topic: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast  (Read 2997 times)

LuckyDee

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[U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« on: November 27, 2013, 10:59 »

Total Biscuit strikes again:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Total Biscuit,
 level 10 Hell Baron Captain Scout,
 rode a mancubus rocket on level 1 of Hell.
 He survived 81765 turns and scored 131913 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 41 minutes and 49 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 502 out of 520 hellspawn. (96%)
 He held his right to remain violent.

 He saved himself once.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 2
  Levels completed : 2

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  .+..........0O.....+........=====[...+0.....^/.........####
  .#......0.[........#........==...==..#+#######.........####
  .#.........=.......#........===......#.......#....O....####
  .#.......====......#.................#.^.....#.........####
  .+........===...0..+.................+.......#.........####
  #####+####+==##+#######+####+####+#######/####+####/#######
  ^+...|.....#=......+.......#+........+........}........####
  ##.........#=......#..!..../.........#.................####
  .#.........+=......#########.........===.........0.....####
  =#.........#.......#......i/.........====..............####
  =+....0....#.......+.^...=.#....0....====..........|M..####
  =####+####+####+#######/#==#+==##+###===#=####/####R#######
  .+=................+....=.=.==.......==.=..i.#.#..X....####
  .===######+#######+#/###===#==######+#====VM+#.#......0####
  ##=......#.#.;0.>..#.|..====.#=......=====.VM#.#.......####
  .#===.=..#.#.......#.......=.#.^.....===######+#######/####
  .=====...#.#..|...0+.......#.#.......===.......>....|..####
  ###########################################################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 47099/10
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Son of a gun     (Level 2)
    Reloader         (Level 1)
    Dualgunner       (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Gun Kata         (Level 1)

  Int->Int->SoG->SoG->DG->HR->HR->DM->MGK->Rel->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   duelist armor [1/2] (2%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   pistol (2d4) [6/6] (T1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   steel boots [1/1] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   pistol (2d4) [0/6] (T1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1]
    [b] blue armor [4/4] (100%) (P)
    [c] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
    [d] red armor [4/4] (95%)
    [e] red armor [4/4] (200%) (B)
    [f] phaseshift armor [1/2] (3%) (B)
    [g] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [h] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [i] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [j] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [k] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [l] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [m] 10mm ammo (x77)
    [n] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [o] rocket (x10)
    [p] envirosuit pack
    [q] bulk mod pack
    [r] acid-proof boots [0/0] (100%)
    [s] 10mm ammo chain (x250)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 0%    torso 12%   feet 0%   
    Melee      - internal 0%    torso 12%   feet 0%   
    Shrapnel   - internal 0%    torso 12%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    72 former humans
    59 former sergeants
    23 former captains
    131 imps
    29 demons
    58 lost souls
    26 cacodemons
    22 hell knights
    18 barons of hell
    12 arachnotrons
    8 former commandos
    5 pain elementals
    8 revenants
    3 mancubi
    6 arch-viles
    7 elite former humans
    5 elite former sergeants
    5 elite former captains
    2 elite former commandos
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Cyberdemon

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  He nuked level 14!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 17 he finally rode a mancubus rocket.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 The missile hits the revenant. The missile hits the revenant.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a revenant (heavily wounded) | open door | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the revenant. The missile hits the revenant. The revenant
 hits you.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a revenant (heavily wounded) | open door | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the revenant. The missile hits the revenant. The revenant
 hits you.
 You use a small med-pack. You feel healed. The revenant hits you.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : a revenant (severely wounded) | open door | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the revenant. The missile hits the revenant.
 Your weapon is empty.
 You reload the pistol. The revenant hits you. Boom! You die!... Press
 <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 42 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 20 of those were killed.
 1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 3 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 18 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 3 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 14 killed the bitch and survived.
 1 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This run is actually a couple of days and games ago already, but I thought I'd share it anyway. During the UV AoMC runs I did, I'd taken up the idea to try out an INT2-MGK build, see what that would do me. Since I was - and still am - aiming for UAC and Veteran Gold, and MGK has served me well in at least one HNTR game, it had to be a standard game.

Why this game was great: I knew I wasn't going to make it when I was only just past the Anomaly. I took severe punishment on more than one occasion, found myself being screwed around by the RNG too often as well, and - icing on the cake - I misclicked on the last level-up and chose REL instead of SOG ><
However, I persevered, and kept playing as well as I could. I'm actually amazed I got into Hell at all, although I didn't do more than peek past the front door and into the hallway. It did show me that even some very bleak situations can eventually turn out just fine, if I take a moment to do a mental retreat-and-regroup, and redouble my efforts.

Why this game was terrible: MGK is outright terrible, at least when you find only standard pistols and hardly any decent mods. The fire speed is tremendous, and I could easily squeeze off 12 shots (DG at work, of course) into an archvile's face before he had a chance to raise as much as an eyebrow. Problem is: I'd need at least 6 more bullets to finish him off. I was actually stunned by how hard it sucks.
Have a look at my starting position on the last level, and let me know what - if anything - could have been done to avoid certain death.

Any other tips and tricks on MGK or pistol builds on higher difficulties in general would be much appreciated too.
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[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

Sylph

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 13:40 »

"MGK is outright terrible, at least when you find only standard pistols and hardly any decent mods."

The way the maths works out re: Firing speed, SoG level 3 is a similar damage increase (ie nearly double) to that of dualgunner. That is to say, SoG-> SoG -> DG -> SoG, as a build, puts out about twice as much damage as SoG -> SoG -> DG.
If you go for this build again, try it without neglecting the third level of SoG, even if it means delaying the (not tremendously important) master trait.

Sounds like a fun run though! I think you would have got it had you adjusted the build a bit!
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LuckyDee

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 14:16 »

It was a rollercoaster ride, really, but very enlightening.

In regard to MGK: it turns out I had misinformed myself about the reduced attack time, but I at least expected a lot more of what's essentially a boatload of free reloads - with the large groups of formers and imps walking about. As to my skill progression: I'm nowhere near comfortable enough with UV to start without INT-INT, and getting HR2 and especially DM seemed preferable over SOG3. Worth reconsidering though, based on what you're saying.
Too bad the RNG gave me Phobos Lab again, instead of the Base, otherwise I would have been able to squeeze out a little more XP. Or have died trying.
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[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

Sylph

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 15:27 »

Quote
I'm nowhere near comfortable enough with UV to start without INT-INT, and getting HR2 and especially DM seemed preferable over SOG3
By all means, don't think I'm trying to persuade you not to start with INTx2! Its a great way to play!
My point is, I really don't think HR2 and DM is anywhere near as important as SoG 3. In fact, I don't think ANYTHING for a pistol user is more important than stacking SoaG. The reason is the additive attack speed reductions... SoaG stacks wonderfully!

damage per second
    3.1 - basic pistol
    4.6 - SoaG
    7.2 - SoaGx2
  12.4 - SoaGx2, DG
  12.4 - SoaGx3
  19.8 - SoaGx3, DG
  27.9 - SoaGx4
  55.8 - SoaGx4, DG
  62.0 - SoaGx5
124.0 - SoaGx5, DG

The numbers obviously sway more in SoaG's favour when one of your pistols is better than the other.

I'm gonna have a play with MGK. I'm still waiting for the chance to make a nanomachic combat pistol so that I don't have to worry about those free reloads! Had a storm bolter combat pistol a few times, and to be honest I tend to prefer High power! I think it has a lot to do with the knockback potential of high power, and the hindrance of knocking back with storm bolter.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 15:28 by Sylph »
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IronBeer

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 18:36 »

Gun Kata needs at least one seriously badass pistol to work- the Trigun, GCB, and Anti-Freak Jackal have the statlines they have likely because they're designed to work with MGK. Of course, you can't count on getting any of those weapons with any regularity, so you'll need to get creative with what basic Pistols can become.

As you noted, the problem is in needing to kill an enemy in one clip. I shouldn't need to explicitly enumerate potential solutions to that.
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LuckyDee

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 23:53 »

By all means, don't think I'm trying to persuade you not to start with INTx2!

No, I understood, I just meant switching the orders of HR/DM, MGK and SOG3. I knew SOG was good, but not that it was that good.

As you noted, the problem is in needing to kill an enemy in one clip. I shouldn't need to explicitly enumerate potential solutions to that.

Assuming finding no special guns or any half decent mod, humour me....
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[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]

MaiZure

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2013, 01:10 »

By all means, don't think I'm trying to persuade you not to start with INTx2! Its a great way to play!

...But allow me to run with this!

In AoMC/UV, I'm all for Intx2 because you can be killed by many mid/late game baddies in one turn.

In AoMr/UV, I have to go with combat traits the whole way, especially if you're going for conquerer/100%. Taking out CC+ or even Arena is a true bear with 'only' extra visibility. These games end early, and the early combat benefits seem to give me the edge to survive.
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LuckyDee

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2013, 05:57 »

In AoMr/UV, I have to go with combat traits the whole way, especially if you're going for conquerer/100%. Taking out CC+ or even Arena is a true bear with 'only' extra visibility.

You're probably right here. I did several attempts at Arena Gold (no success yet), but these were indeed all based on increasing SOG asap. As to going for YAAM on AoMr: as long as you're prepared to skip the early special levels, starting with INT-INT still seems valid to me. And personally, the only special levels I dare play are the Arena (on a non-AoMr run), Phobos Base and the Abyssal Plains (again, non-AoMr) anyway. For a standard YAAM game (masterless), I'm going to stick to INT-INT for the time being. For AoMr.... we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
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[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
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ZicherCZ

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2013, 06:47 »

Perhaps a tip on Arena Gold, LD: Start as a Technician. The tech mod for extra firing speed along with SoG3 is quite a nice bit of extra help, or, if you're lucky, you'll also start with the other mod needed for speedloader pistol. Every speed boost counts in the early game.
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DoomRL 0.997: Cyberdemon Brigadier General - Games: 217, Wins: 2/5/3/6/0, Medals: 18, Specials: 64, Asm: 39, Badges: 19/17/16/5/1/Are you kidding?
Jupiter Hell: Inner Circle - first tech build reached and working

LuckyDee

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2013, 06:50 »

Good one. I tried Scout, with mixed results, thought I'd take Tech for the item use time next attempt. Hadn't even taken the T mod into account.
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MaiZure

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2013, 07:30 »

While we're at it:

Arena Plat = AoMC as a Scout with Intx2 + SoB. Be sure to farm dlvl 2 for 1000+ ammo and the chaingun. Use your extended vision to draw all the enemies to the same area in each wave
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IronBeer

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2013, 12:41 »

Assuming finding no special guns or any half decent mod, humour me....
Ranks in SoG/SOB, Bulk Mods, potential Assembly pistols. Truth be told, there really isn't much you can do to make MGK work without good gear- it's an all-in trait. Whizkid could help, but that would pull trait points from other necessities like HR/potentially INT.

I dunno, LD. There's a reason I've never seriously tried MGK.
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0.9.9.7 Mancubus 1st Lieutenant
[19/12/5/1/0]

LuckyDee

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Re: [U|96%|17|YASD] Doing No Damage Really Fast
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2013, 12:52 »

I dunno, LD. There's a reason I've never seriously tried MGK.

And I'm not saying you're wrong - unfortunately :S

SOB is off limits of course, and the only half useful assembly that doesn't require you to divert more points into FIN and WK is the high power pistol, which severely limits your clip size. I probably will give it another try at some point; the numbers Sylph showed lead me to believe that some good should be able to come of it, but it's definitely on hibernation for now.

While we're at it:

Arena Plat = AoMC as a Scout with Intx2 + SoB. Be sure to farm dlvl 2 for 1000+ ammo and the chaingun. Use your extended vision to draw all the enemies to the same area in each wave

Eep. I'll, eh, stick to UV for the time being. I hope I can remember your advice long enough.
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[0.9.9.7G] Current: Hell Knight 1st Lieutenant [20/12/4/0/0/0]
High: Arch-Vile Lt. Colonel [25/21/12/2/1/0]
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