Jupiter Hell > General Discussion

Design Rant : Inventory

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Sambojin:
(I'll make a different post for each section, the ideas don't need to be used together)

1-d weapon slots.

As noted, I like tetris inventories. But in a game like JH, it would seem weird to have a left/right hand slot, other stuff, and everything else is in the backpack. How many soldiers carry weapons and ammo and other crap in their backpack? Mostly its ammunition pouches for ammo, held/shoulder strapped/holstered/webbing for weapons/grenades, and other stuff in the backpack. Some stuff needs to be accessible quickly, some is in the pack.

So I think JH could use 3 different areas. Guns, ammo, backpack. Guns being a 1d list, ammo being pouch/slot based (as mentioned above) and then a slot or tetris based backpack. Why? Simplicity (even if it sounds complicated).

How many weapons should JHGuy (son of DoomGuy) be able to carry? All of them? Certainly more than a primary/secondary, but all of them, all at once? Probably not.

So give weapons a size, with a maximum amount of "size" to be carried. You have 10 "amount" to be carried, with a dual-wield able to be used for size 1 weapons. Primary/secondary gives faster switching.  Pistols, knives, grenades, etc are size 1, SMGs size 2, shotguns size 3, chainguns/RLs size 4, BFGs size 5. Whatever. Size will be a balance thing.

You can only carry weapons up to the maximum value. Traits/level-ups/armours may increase the allowable size limit, decrease the size a certain weapon class is (level into dual-weilding SMGs or shotguns!) or do all kinds of other things (switch speeds for specific sizes of weapons or types, etc). But it will handily provide a cap for the amount of weapons a player can carry at any given time without backpack size being king. Weapons should be independent of the amount of other stuff you can carry, otherwise backpack size = everything, which it shouldn't be.

Whilst I'm on about de-coupling various mechanics from each other, weapon size and weapon type don't need to be the same stat either. You can have size 4 beefy shotguns and size 3 "chaingun" assault rifles. And really big fucking guns. This ties into traits and builds as well as itemization and armour. Ammo plays a role as well, since a mini-gun sure does hold a lot of bullets, even if it's a bit bigger than a chain-gun, pistol or SMG.

Taken with the ideas on ammunition above, it doesn't railroad you into certain things, but it does limit them nicely. The starting ammo pouches/weapon-size values were arbitrarily picked, they're just an example.

(I've got heaps more to add to this one. I might do a mockup myself to show what I mean).

Sambojin:
Traits/level ups.

While this may be a little off-topic, it does have bearing on the things I mentioned. I see JH as being a "larger" game than DoomRL, especially in it's levelling system. Rather than 9-12 choices in any given standard run, it might be more common to hit level 20 or 30 (or have 20-30 choices to make) by the time you finish the game.

This is a good thing. It offers not only a more controlled levelling system, it stops the "power-jumping" that is present in DoomRL. Some advanced or master traits are so different that you can go from average to godly in one level, where the ones before it felt incremental in power. It's a part of the game, it's good, but it doesn't have to be that way.

A faster, but more incremental levelling system can also allow for more synergies and build strategies than are immediately obvious. The amount of level-ups aren't really the problem, you could just as easily have 2 or 3 traits per level-up. But it would allow a more complex system to be used.

Which ties us back into inventory. I guess this is more of a question than a thought:

How much of the levelling/trait system is expected to be used on inventory buffs or item modding in JH?

I'm a fan of de-coupling mechanics, yet making them obvious to the player. I'm also a fan of synergies and unexpectedly powerful builds. Will there be items or traits to expand inventory size or use? I like my outlined thoughts above for such a system (as poorly explained as they are), but how much is set as "this is your character" and how much is changeable throughout play? Inventory is a big issue in this.

Sambojin:
Anyway. End of thoughts, but I'll modify the above posts a fair bit over the next day or so. De-coupling both weapons and ammo from the backpack seems like a good option though.

Hmmmm. I'm going drinking until I remember what I was going to put in this post. Probably some stuff about levelling. Or mods. Maybe ammo. It was something profound that vaguely linked into it all. Might just be a placeholder for mock-ups.

There's traits, modding, and the backpack and all kinds of stuff still left though. Classes, itemization. The list goes on.....

Svankensen:
I like the idea of a "pouch" mechanic. Simple and customizable depending on your weapon needs. Cause i have a single BIG gripe with the "weapon box" system as initialli proposed: RNG. Say you get dropped too little of some ammo boxes, but that constitutes your main weapon. You may be able to survive or work around it, but do you want the game to go that way? I think not. Thats what i disliked of SOTS: the pit (and i loved that game): Way too heavy RNG dependency. The setable pouches work nicely in that direction. I mean, ammo pouches would be common enough that they could be dropped without big worries, while the total quantity of them you carry is an important tactical decision. It also helps introduce some nice concepts easily, allowing for advanced stuff like for example an automated ammo glove. It reloads weapons almost instantly, but only fits 1 magazine (until you have time to reload the glove) and only for some ammo types (shells or energy based weapons, prolly).

Also, i do like the idea of being able to carry ammo in a suboptimal way, great if you are desperate for saving some rare ammo. Put it in one of your equipment slots. I was gonna say your off hand, but of course my mind went on and tought of a few interesting things that could relate to that concept. They may go against your design concepts tho, but i think you are smart enough to filter trough that. In the awesome game Space Station 13 you have a "back" slot, belt, Inner layer of clothes, outher layer (space suits, armor, coats). So, if you want to have a big oxygen tank, you must either hold it in one of your hands or in your back, so no backpack, just what you can store in your belt and pockets. So you could start the game with just an utility belt (who goes around with a backpack all day?) and maybe a good but oversized melee weapon that uses your backslot. Hell, maybe tank and blowtorch. Or you could find an energy backpack that stores a metric fuckton of power for one or another weapon. Excellent if you are near the endgame, you can abuse that plasma rifle or BFG. Will it last long enough? maybe youll find yourself saving ammo by using a belt weapon like a pistol or something. Also allows for suit changes with different pocket sizes and protections. Small strategic decisions like those.

Trar:
I'm liking these ideas. I do agree there should be pouches, webbing and weapons separate from a backpack slot. I also like the idea of large ammo packs the player can wear on their back for certain weapons, but this would interfere with a backpack. The player could use a utility belt/webbing/fanny pack looted from the civilian dorms with, say, an energy backpack, but with less carrying capacity.

On an unrelated note, has anyone thought about whether there will be food in this game? Ration packs and so forth? Space marines gotta eat too.

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