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Author Topic: Rebalancing barrels?  (Read 6940 times)

Tormuse

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Rebalancing barrels?
« on: February 16, 2014, 10:44 »
Ever since upgrading to version 0.9.9.7, I've noticed that barrels do more damage now.  So, I've just tried to be more mindful of that and stay away from them and be more careful around them.  Then this happened:

Spoiler: Mortem (click to show/hide)

The game was going really well and I had worked hard to get the above equipment and I was at 100% hitpoints at the time I went around a blind corner and an imp shot at me, hit a barrel and killed me instantly.  I was astonished and infuriated that the game ended so suddenly and examined the mortem and the wiki and discovered that napalm barrels can potentially knock off 98% of your health!  (And the lava damage finished me off; I knew the damage from barrels was high, but I had no idea it was *that* high!)  Granted, I was wearing armour and boots that didn't offer me any protection at the time, but I just don't think that one single barrel hit by a low level enemy should be able to bring you from full to nothing instantly like that.  (It's not like I was playing Angel of Humanity!)



tl;dr  Barrels do too much damage in this version!  Grrr!!!
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ParaSait

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2014, 11:19 »
Yeah especially the napalm barrels have to change.
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Thiebs

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2014, 14:13 »
I haven't seen too much problem with this. Yes, they can do a lot of damage. But that's kinda the point of shooting barrels full of high-explosives, isn't it? They usually aren't too hard to avoid walking near, and can be set off from a distance, moved from where the choke point is, and teleported around. I've only died to barrels a handful of times (out of many, many deaths), and rarely even die from them on the 'barrel hell' levels, and I'm not even a great player (no wins over HNTR).
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ParaSait

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2014, 15:59 »
It happened more to me than I'd like to admit T_T
Dem freaking shotgunners lurking behind the corners...

And don't get me wrong. It's fine if napalm barrels still pack a punch. Hell, they're freaking napalm barrels exploding right in your face. But sudden instadeath at 100% HP or more (hey, if the explosion doesn't do it, the lava will) is maybe a little too harsh.

(a fun side note: I made a comic about this maddening phenomenon some time ago...)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 16:06 by ParaSait »
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Tormuse

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2014, 18:33 »
Like ParaSait said, I'm okay with them doing a lot of damage, but if one can kill you even when you're above 100% health, I think that's too much.
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Thiebs

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2014, 18:39 »
I think if one were to nerf barrels, it shouldn't be a damage nerf. The only thing that napalm barrels ever get me on is when I *can't* avoid them or set them off without blocking my way completely. Seems to me the damage isn't really the issue as much as the pools left after. I'd say that the best way to go about it would be to make the lava they drop 'dry up' after a few turns. It'd look cool, make sense, and you'd be able to set them off from a distance without blocking your way, but you'd still have to pay attention to whether you were destroying cover/healing/items/etc, and, of course, you'd have to be safe enough to stand around for a few turns.
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ParaSait

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 19:14 »
How about simply reducing the amount of barrels placed on the map? Lotsa fuel barrels is alright, but napalm should be spawned in moderation, especially since the lava can get incredibly spammy at times when you set off a large chain of em...
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Thiebs

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 19:17 »
True, but that also means fewer opportunities to blast the hell out of the baddies! And I've found that the only times I die to barrels are when that *one* barrel is in the way, and I have to walk past it and pray. Doesn't ever matter how many, just that there is always *that one*, even when it's the only one.
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RogerN

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2014, 06:42 »
Choosing to walk near a barrel is always a calculated risk.  You [almost] always have the option to blow the barrel from a distance.  There may be guaranteed negative consequences (destroying cover, valuable items, or forcing yourself to walk over lava later), but those consequences must be weighed against the worst case scenario of the barrel exploding in your face.

There are items to mitigate the risks: phase devices, fire-resistant armor, rocket launchers for creating your own secondary routes.  Games with procedurally generated levels often rely on preparation and creativity by the player to balance the randomized "unfairness."  It still ends up being unfair sometimes... fortunately these games have lots of replay value :)

I can remember being killed from 100% a couple of times by barrels.  I don't think it's happened while I was wearing good armor, though - not without help from nearby enemies.
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Juice

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 13:28 »
I disagree with nerfing the barrels, I like that sometimes, they just surprise you so much it's (nearly) impossible to avoid death. Losing is FUN ;)
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thelaptop

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 18:08 »
What, you guys want Uranium barrels with a critical mass that explode with the wrath of a BFG 9000?

Man... you folks are sadistic/masochistic.  I'll see what we can do about that...
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Thiebs

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 18:45 »
Actually, barrels with wall-like properties that had ginormous explosions when you finally set them off would be pretty cooooolll...
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Tormuse

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 19:01 »
You're thinking too small, TheLaptop, you need nuclear barrels that destroy everything on the level.  :P

Quote from: Thiebs on February 16, 2014, 18:39
I think if one were to nerf barrels, it shouldn't be a damage nerf. The only thing that napalm barrels ever get me on is when I *can't* avoid them or set them off without blocking my way completely. Seems to me the damage isn't really the issue as much as the pools left after. I'd say that the best way to go about it would be to make the lava they drop 'dry up' after a few turns. It'd look cool, make sense, and you'd be able to set them off from a distance without blocking your way, but you'd still have to pay attention to whether you were destroying cover/healing/items/etc, and, of course, you'd have to be safe enough to stand around for a few turns.

I guess you and I have different playing preferences.  :)  I see the napalm/acid barrels as being part of the strategy/planning aspect of playing the level; you have to choose whether to set them off early so you don't get blown up while moving past them, or deal with the fluids they leave behind.  If the fluids faded over time, then I would unquestionably just destroy the barrels ahead of time all the time and never give it a second thought.  I think that would take away from the game more than it would add, and it still wouldn't address the issue of full hitpoint instadeaths that I brought up before.
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Thiebs

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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 19:56 »
Well, if you always blew them up ahead of time, it would take care of instadeaths. Just not the strategy of level clearing. Though that's my fault for not being clear enough: I had intended for the 'drying' to be limited. Only the rough edges would dry, the center would stay molten.
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Re: Rebalancing barrels?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2014, 05:12 »
Quote from: thelaptop on February 17, 2014, 18:08
What, you guys want Uranium barrels with a critical mass that explode with the wrath of a BFG 9000?

Man... you folks are sadistic/masochistic.  I'll see what we can do about that...
A bounty reward for that would be pretty awesome, indeed. Uranium barrels, huh.
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