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[Sylph]

I meant while dual wielding, but thanks for clarifying, I should have made that more clear.

Since a new beta of doomrl just got served up, I just did a HMP run (because UV has to be unlocked), and thinking of this thread, I went with a masterless rapidfire/hybrid build, streaming and recording the entire run. Despite pretty poor luck (no nano packs, no laser rifle, no minigun, no firestorm packs, no nuclear plasma, no plasma until after the armoury), I still didn't encounter a single ammo issue throughout the entire run. Clearing the mortuary required a little pistol/melee trickery, but I basically got by without a hitch. I'm actually thinking that 'juggler' might be a key skill when it comes to ammo conservation, weird as it sounds. Being able to switch to melee for a finish, or switching to shotgun or rockets in situations where they are the most suitable weapon/all you need, turns out to actually be a huge ammo saver. My build was a typical EagleEye/SonOfaBitch/TriggerHappy start, followed by whizkid and juggler, then finished up with hellrunner.

Just as I finished building tactical armour, I found an onyx pack, I was gutted! I would have used all those agility packs on a hyperblaster or something! I think in future I'll mod the boots and armour, but save assembling tacticals until after the armoury. Still, I ended up switching between my tactical, and my onyx red, depending on whether I was moving, or gunning.
I was really quite surprised to see how reliably the cyberdemon's rockets can be dodged with a single suit of tactical armour! I never realised it was such a straightforward way of taking him down!

Anyway, since I had the misfortune to not come across any of the optimal exotics or uniques for a rapidfire character (no nuclear plasma, nano pack, firestorm pack, laser rifle, or minigun), but still had no real ammo difficulties, I thought I'd post the run here as an example of how reliably powerful masterless rapidfire builds can be despite poor fortune.

If you miss the rest of the run, at least watch the lava pits! It's pretty funny, looking back, how closely I missed 'conquerer'. ♥

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdPcxR6yDbQ



Oh, and:

I think he meant that he couldn't get a reload speed bonus while dual-weilding. Still good to know when playing a Technician!

If you meant me, you got the pronouns wrong. You should be able to tell by how much I like to talk! ;)

[Thiebs]

Sorry, I figured as much, I just didn't bother to look at who the 'he' I was referring to was. If that makes sense.

[Sambojin]

On the possible rapidfire/shotty builds, the MAc or MAD runup is the easiest version of it. Shotty traits first, then make a choice after SM depending on what you find. Both guarantee a nice weapon with good ammo conservation and a fairly easy game (although you're more or less locked into shotties and rockets with MAD if you choose that route). Although tec or scout masterless builds are both possible and slightly more powerful and adaptable.

Juggler is *still* the best trait in the game though. Almost to the point that it needs a nerf (0.1 sec switching? Not a huge difference, but at least it has some cost).

I'll watch your run shortly Sylph. Youtube, DoomRL and a tiny phone screen really don't show the game well. It made me happy that it's more than just me that takes 2 1/2 hours to finish a run. Sometimes I go through mortems on here and wonder what I'm doing wrong.

It sounds like you're picking up the game really well Ghaleon, far faster than I did at any rate. Well done.

[emulord]

I would love for juggler to have 0.1 sec switching time, but affect any weapon whatsoever. That sounds more fair and less meta.
The only problem is that people would use it for microwaits and always get the first hit. 1sec period(.) resting exists for that reason.

[Sylph]

Juggler is *still* the best trait in the game though. Almost to the point that it needs a nerf (0.1 sec switching? Not a huge difference, but at least it has some cost).

You probably forgot berserker there, and a lot of master traits, and probably hellrunner...
I get what you're saying, juggler is certainly powerful, but it's not allowed for *so* many challenges, not a prerequisite for many useful masters, requires dumps into finesse which don't help your burst, and does nothing to increase your damage, instead saving you a single turn of changing weapons. Compare that with many rapidfire or pistol traits around the early game that nearly double your damage/turn.
 
I'm a *big* fan of juggler, I ♥ it! But I'm a fan because of the amount of strategies it opens up for nice builds, not because it's powerful. (It is), but no more so than many more versatile traits. It's a well-balanced trait that offers different playstyles without disrupting balance, which I think is great! If it were nerfed, I'd hate to end up just taking hellrunner + berserker for all my 'hybrid' builds. (I don't think there are currently any N! character archetypes, like pistol+shotgun or rapidfire+melee for example, that are easier with juggler than they are with hellrunner+berserker)... Nerfing juggler is a bad idea in my mind. :(
Oh, and while we're talking about it, changing wait time to 0.1s wouldn't be a nerf to juggler. It would be a massive buff, probably to the point of making it the best trait in the game.

Also, yeah, I take ages to play turn-based games- I'm the same with all roguelikes, and candycrush! If I want to give myself a seizure, I play league of legends, Starcraft 2, psyvariar 2, or mutant storm. ;)

[Sambojin]

Didn't actually cross my mind that it'd be used for 0.1 second waiting (which it would). I completely retract my statement on that as a nerf.

Actually, watching your Let's Play made me realize how rarely I use gift-dropping and waiting in comparison to other players. I do use it, but only to clear a room or two in a tricky situation, not as an extensive tool. I'll have to start doing so. I don't have too much of a problem getting a few wins on UV, but it looks like my win % will go up drastically if I used it more often.

I'll agree that there's plenty of powerful traits, even very versatile ones, but that shows a good levelup system at work. Even "lesser" traits are often just a step on the road to something very powerful or synergistic to a build. I guess my thoughts on Juggler are based on my playstyle. I'm not very cautious and have been known to play rather drunk (and thus not strategizing well or at all). Then Juggler is an absolute lifesaver. It allows you to be slightly more oblivious to game mechanics and obvious situations that should be used to your advantage yet still come out on top.

[Thiebs]

I'm not in favor of a Juggler nerf, either. But should such a thing happen, it'd be more realistic and less game-breaking to just make it not be a free reload between guns of the same type. You'd still get more time between reloads by being able to switch to different type guns, but being able to juggle shotties to get better reload speeds than a dedicated shotty build (with fewer perks) makes the early-to-mid very easy compared to some other builds, and doesn't really do too much to nerf later-game use, since you don't spam shotty blasts carelessly so much against later enemies, and have a wider variety of weapons to switch to, anyway.

Again, I like Juggler the way it is. Even the reload thing isn't really that good, since it's use wears out quickly as the game progresses, so I don't feel it's broken, especially not compared to Vampire and it's ilk. Just food for thought.