DoomRL > Discussion
Balancing Assemblies
Evilpotatoe:
Bah, as long as the game doesn't use such an exploitable mechanic as its corner stone, I guess it still can be interesting (And I'm quite confident that you'll come up with something nice).
To give an example where turn-based "is better", turning Blood bowl into a real-time game is an Idea I never liked (and the result was terrible).
One of the things I would worry the most about is balance, since it's freaking hard to find the good compromise, and the whole DoomRL thing, while very good, has some issues about OP melee, nano, dual-angels combos... (which is quite by design, since those are the result of your way of "chaos forging" things, and see what happens).
That's why I say, about exotics/uniques, that I would expect a "clean-up" more than "new stuff". Putting new stuff in seems pointless to me if we don't try to understand why current ones are unused, and try to fix what needs to be.
The same could apply to traits and masteries, many weapons, fire skull, F-mod, and so on, but all in all... DoomRL remains a great game, despite all useless stuff and masteries. I'm just trying to make it (or JH) even better.
Now that I know games like DoomRL, I can't play old-school ones like Hengband : Too much crappy stuff, random things, grind, exploits...
I'd love JH to make me definitely stop playing doomRL (well, I doubt I would : shootgunning hordes of demons is too sweet, and I love that caco death sound), but if JH is deeper, harder, less repetitive... it might be what happens.
I can mainly wait and see anyway, but I have to bring what I can to the edifice.
appuru:
To add to the cornershooting topic, I think one big takeaway from its advent is that *some* form of cover-based defense is essential in the context of DoomRL. It doesn't need to be as binary as it currently is (aka a low level character with some weapon traits can render even archviles harmless with a tactical shotgun and a corner, yet 2 imps can be deadly in the open). Take XCOM, for example; you can use map geometry to vastly boost your defense, and getting flanked nullifies this defense bonus. I really think cornershooting can be fixed and replaced with a system that provides chance to dodge and/or even damage reduction based on your cover (or even the type of tile you're standing on).
It would need some math to calculate hit chances based on proximity and whether you're flanked or not, but it's a tried and true method of emphasizing the use of cover in turn based combat, and I figure this would be the natural evolution of cornershooting.
I don't mean to derail from the topic though, I'd be glad to talk more about this elsewhere :P
Kornel Kisielewicz:
When I was creating DoomRL, I didn't fully know what I was doing :P. The tactics and gameplay kind of evolved. AliensRL and Berserk! are more of an example of controlled design, and I think that despite their comparable simplicity they show a much more thought out design.
JH is the same - we'll first try to make an enjoyable Arena-style combat game before stretching it out to a full game. Actually when the time comes you're both invited to help out :P.
Tormuse:
Excellent analysis, Evilpotatoe! :D *Applauds* I would've said pretty much the same thing with a few addendums...
Gatling Gun: I like having one around in masterless games. It's good to have something that uses bullets in case you run out of other types of ammo and it's nice to have a bullet weapon that's slightly more powerful than the regular chaingun.
Micro Launcher: I've gotten this one a bunch of times in games where I was unable to get Eagle Eye. I think the point of this weapon is to give the rocket launcher more of a chance to be a "primary" weapon. The rocket launcher is good for wall-busting and corpse-disposal, but in regular combat, it's uncommon to find a situation where it's the best one to use, because enemies can get shots in during the slow reloading time and this gets exacerbated if your shot misses. The micro launcher trades a bit of damage for being able to fire and reload faster and have better accuracy. I disagree with Evilpotatoe about giving it a damage buff; I think the reduced damage is a fair trade for more versatility.
High power weapon: Agreed on all points, except that I would be more likely to use it on rapid weapons than on pistols, since having a smaller clip size means more frequent reloading which exacerbates the pistol's biggest drawback.
Tower Shield: For the record, Evilpotatoe, all "shield" types of armour can be repaired with a Megasphere.
Fireproof armour/boots and Ballistic armour: I personally never get these; I don't like the idea of armour that decreases any of my resistances. That could just be my playing style, though; I know they are popular amongst other players.
Grappling boots: I'll get these once in a while if I want something with slightly better protection against fluids, but for the most part, I'd rather have extra speed and avoid stepping in fluids at all.
Storm Bolter Pistol: I much prefer the one that we had in the previous version; that storm bolter kicked ass! :) I suppose it's understandable that it had to be nerfed, but I think it got nerfed too much.
Assault Rifle: This one has been brought up a bunch of times, I think. There are a lot of much better uses for agility mods and this one doesn't come even remotely close to being useful enough to justify using three of them! Also, it just feels weird, turning a rapid-fire weapon into, essentially, a pistol with a big clip. I can only see it being useful if it has much higher accuracy and/or damage. (Oh hey! That could be your sniper rifle, Evilpotatoe!) :)
Burst Cannon: As long as I have enough levels in Eagle Eye, I've found this one to be quite useful on a number of occasions. I think it's fine the way it is.
Focused Double Shotgun: As Evilpotatoe would say, "it looks good on paper." :) It takes away the double shotgun's biggest drawback, which sounds really good in theory, but in practice, I'd much rather use my bullet or plasma weapons for far away enemies. I suppose it could be good in an Angel of Shotgunnery game, since it gives you a bit more versatility, but in AoSh games that I've played, getting Whizkid hasn't been a priority, so I never used it.
One more thing...
--- Quote from: Evilpotatoe on April 03, 2016, 03:55 --- Gunrunner doesn't seem like a usable alternative to me, for a lot of reasons).
--- End quote ---
This makes me really want to record a game with Gunrunner build. :D It takes a while to get going, but it's a lot of fun once it does. :)
EDIT:
--- Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on April 03, 2016, 12:00 ---Actually when the time comes you're both invited to help out :P.
--- End quote ---
Can I help out too? :D
Evilpotatoe:
@Tormuse :
I'm glad to see my pov doesn't seem too much subjective after all, but yeah, some items can clearly be useful
#Micro Launcher
You seem right, I should not have rated it "useless", I guess it may have (real) uses.
But I really feel it eats too much rockets. Used it a few times, and got serious problems with it. Maybe you're right about the accuracy efficiency (I'll try to replace my Tac RL with that for shambler's head... and see if it works. Still, I'm afraid I'll ruin my -often short at the time- rocket supply.)
I agree a damage buff is probably not the best (not roleplay...), but maybe it could get a clip size of 2, refillable with 1 single rocket ? Bah, dunno well. The accurracy buff seems quite weak compared to the drawbacks to me. Gotta retry it for Shambly, though. (and get Pwned if I get Lab instead of HA:)
#High power weapon
Do you ever craft one ? :p I doubt one extra side is worth losing 1/3 ammo and blocking other mod slots. I think the only ones I crafted were pistols, to get rid of demons in early AoMr.
#Grappling boots :
Those ones shall get a melee damage buff and get renamed into "Tormuse boots" :D
#Burst cannon :
Do you use this with MAc ? Looks like it eats ammo pretty fast (which means wasting 2 more shots for every former), and I don't feel like it's of any real use in most cases. I don't pick TH for the same reason (SOB seems much more relevant to me), since once you're behind your corner, you don't have to worry too much about your DPS as long as it's high enough.
The numbers don't seem too bad with EE to back-it up, but I can't really imagine a scenario where I would "need" this.
#Gunrunner :
I don't doubt it can be used, and it's one of the master-traits which brings a real upgrade to the player, but blocking SOB is violent, and blocking Whizkid is frustrating. I agree this "could be OP" (...not as much as MVm or MAc, imo), but the first thing I want to do with such a mastery is crafting a nanomachic missile launcher and run through monsters, wrecking chaotic havoc.
Currently, I can't. Nor can I craft an hyperblaster, or whatever funny I'd like to... :'(
I love the idea, and the gunrunning aspect fits my playstyle well, but it's not enough "cornershooting-compliant" with the current game.
I find it very frustrating to have to weaken your char in early by picking weak traits, and then be capped without WK or SOB.
Also, not choosing your targets while running looks like a lack of crontrol to me : placing shooty blasts or rockets with precision is a part of the tactics/strategy which I guess I would miss... if I managed to get one of those wimpy chars to lvl 6, which I doubt I ever did (they probably all got a Darwin's award very quickly... kind of natural selection :p).
And (icing on the cake), having to run for it to work looks like "Yet another constricting nerf". I can understand it, but this means my mastery won't be usable, or will quickly cost me a lot of kits if I fall in levels without powerups (while my inventory shall be dedicated to more ammo since I lack SOB.)
I'm sure the "running turret" mode can be fun once enabled, but in the current game, it looks too weak to me.
A bit like "Bullet dance" : sure you can play and win a game with it (Look at my recent "MBD conqueror !"), but... well, I'm not sure it's the easiest way to go.
Btw, feel free to record a gundancing demo if you enjoy it, I'll be your first viewer ^^
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