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Author Topic: Nightmare advice?  (Read 12186 times)

Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2017, 01:42 »

Tormuse, you have videos showing how you do this stuff...

Well, yeah, but Horos was asking how 2Dev does what he does...

You know what?  Fuck it.  I'm gonna go ahead and acknowledge the elephant in the room...

2Dev cheats.  There, I said it.

I didn't want to say it for a variety of reasons...  This forum operates by the honour system.  We have to assume that everyone is honest unless proven otherwise, because if we start throwing around accusations, it poisons the atmosphere of sharing in celebration of achievements.  Also, frankly, I didn't want it to seem like I'm being petty or belittling the "competition" or whatever.  (Besides, it's not like I can prove that all of *my* achievements are legitimate)  :P

But I guess I've decided to break my silence on the issue...  partly because this topic is repeatedly asking about it, partly because 2Dev's account has been deactivated for quite some time now, partly because interest in DRL has waned quite a bit in recent years, especially with Jupiter Hell coming closer to coming out, and well, I guess I don't care enough to keep biting my tongue any more.  :P

But I want everyone to know that I don't make this accusation lightly...  A few years ago, someone (privately) requested that I compile a list of reasons for thinking 2Dev might be cheating and I threw together a partial list which I'll copy and paste here:  (I'm sure I can add more to the list by request)

Spoiler: The List (click to show/hide)

So, there you have it.  Of course, I can't prove anything so maybe I've got some backlash coming my way, but maybe this will at least liven up the forums!  :) 

And now that I've probably damned myself by breaking a sacred rule of the forums, I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...  *Tormuse is suddenly sucked into an unholy void*
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2017, 01:47 »

And now that I've probably damned myself by breaking a sacred rule of the forums, I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...  *Tormuse is suddenly sucked into an unholy void*
I admit that made me giggle loudly. Thanks Tormuse, now everyone at work thinks I'm weirder than they already did.
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2017, 02:31 »

Just to shoe in - Tormuse is right. For me it was the mortem that claimed that 2Dev cleared the spider lair on angel of purity damageless using only the chainsaw.

More importantly - the seasoned doomrl players kinda 'know one another'. At least in so much as they appreciate strengths and weaknesses as people edge towards the skill ceiling. 2dev has been absolutely absent from strategy discussion, and demonstrates a poor understanding of it they few times he replies.

It's a shame to say, but in posts requesting information I always just say 'ignore 2dev's posts'. The cheating kinda 'poisons the well' of information when the best doomrl players are giving someone advice, but in the back of the newbies mind there's the thought 'surely 2dev knows better'.

Anyway, I don't really enjoy this sidetrack of a very interesting topic, so sorry to have waded in. Just didn't want Tormuse to feel he was the only one - someone needed to say something outside of PMs.
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2017, 04:31 »

*Tormuse's voice rings out of an unholy vortex*

THAAAANKS FOR YOUR SUPPOOOOOOOOORT!

*The unholy vortex disappears*
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Check out my Youtube channel for videos of me playing DRL!  :)
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2017, 04:41 »

*dispells unholy vortex*

I think you're fine, as long as you promise to not finish that sentence you started. Welcome back, Tormuse!
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horos

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2017, 04:50 »

Quote from: Tormuse
I might as well go ahead and say that the way to wield the Dragonslayer is...

As mentioned I do know how to wield the Dragonslayer:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I must thank both you and Sylph though. It was something that did nag me a bit (and consequently prevented me from playing on N! - especially the bit about Nightmare not having a luck factor. I feel like i've gained a lot of confidence just from that to try and grow on my own as a player now and try and develop my own strategies - er, even if the anomaly still terrifies me.

This entire topic has been a blast. As much as things are about to get really busy for me, I appreciate everyone's input, and do hope that it remains a useful resource for people in future :) It's a testament to the community here that I received helpful, meaningful and humorous responses when asking for help and not just generic "git gud" comments, as so much of the internet has degraded into now days. I thank each and every one of you.
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2017, 08:08 »

It was something that did nag me a bit (and consequently prevented me from playing on N! - especially the bit about Nightmare not having a luck factor.

To add to this - so do other difficulties. I only manage HMP wins maybe 80% of the time, and a similar number for UV. N! Is about maybe 60% if I'm not doing a challenge. The key, for me, is to get enough weapon masteries to adequately dispatch monsters without taking more damage than a level averages in health pickups, and the rest in the *real* defensive trait, which took me long enough to learn is not tough as nails (HR)! ;)

Nightmare is generally a lot harder, but the extra experience points means you get those essential traits a lot earlier, and the powerup duration on nightmare can be really strong. I'd even argue that I find nightmare easier than UV for a Vampyre build.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 08:13 by Sylph »
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2017, 08:28 »

*dispells unholy vortex*

I think you're fine, as long as you promise to not finish that sentence you started. Welcome back, Tormuse!

*Tormuse reemerges from the aether*

Thanks, Moonshine, it was really weird in there, like time had no meaning.  Is it still 2017 out here?

And I have to admit that I feel a bit like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders now that I've talked about it publicly.  I guess it was bugging me more than I wanted to admit.  :)

As for further tips, Horos, maybe I can make another recording to further answer your questions?  Is there a particular challenge you'd like to see me do?
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Check out my Youtube channel for videos of me playing DRL!  :)
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Q2ZOv

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2017, 09:13 »

I haven't played for quite some time - you can see in my signature that I played a lot during 0.9.9.6 version and almost didn't play 0.9.9.7 version.


For a starting point, I'd recommend a quick read of the 'corpse disposal' section in my guide here:
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt


     Thats quite a nice guide and covers pretty much everything. I want to add couple of little tips to it that I remember being important. First is that a lot of times you might want to use enemies aoe projectiles to get rid of corpses i.e. you want to get hit on purpose. For example this actually helps a lot in Hell Arena when the round spawn is bad and respawn chances are already high. So you just try to tank that cacodemon hit but destroy the corpse of two other cacodemons or even take a hit from that last baron of hell to stay 1 on 1 with him and stop worrying about other one respawning.

     The second tip is that when dealing with enemies with 100%+ speed on N! if you are trying to wait for them near the door then if you are waiting two tiles away (the closest tile where enemies can't see you from other side) due to speed penalties of N! the enemies will have a decent chance to walk into the doorway and immediately attack you since they can see you now. That can be really punishing in the long term so you often need to consider to stay 1 tile further from doorway(that way they can't attack you from the doorway itself). The downsides of it are of course damage/accuracy reduction due to distance but in many cases it can be quite benefitial (good enough shotgun to 1-shot those imps, good enough accuracy so you won't miss more and most important a chance to react to a situation)


Tormuse
Well you are one hell of a brave man! I was always too scared to say anything on the matter.
Personally I felt that the reason my interest in playing DoomRL faded because my dream of getting all badges died with 0.9.9.7 and some of its ridiculous angelic badges. I felt that those ridiculous requirements were inspired by 2dev achievments.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2017, 10:02 »

One way to get used to N! is to try to rush through to the stairs. As you fail and fail, you also learn where you can slow down and kill some enemies/get supplies. Method is kinda dumb, but it worked for me.

Can't advice anything for not taking damage. This was always beyond me.

Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 10:17 by AlterAsc »
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2017, 12:46 »

Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
I'll agree with that one. While it prevents you from getting Berserker and Tough as Nails, combined with a decent armor or two it will make you practically immortal against anything that isn't Plasma or Acid. In my experience, Spideys tend to be the hardest to deal with since unless you've managed to get a really good base for a Cerberus armor (Onyx :P) or just found a really neat piece of armor you're basically relying on dodge and tactics to avoid damage from them, which is harder because of their low base dodge chance and their rapid fire nature. Commandoes and Captains pose similar problems because they're rapid fire, but tend to be easier to deal with. Barons and Knights tend to be easier in my experience since they're easier to trick into melee range, where they'll deal no damage.. And the fact that unless there's a ton of them you can just dodge into melee range. Just having any kind of Red armor or better makes anything dealing fire damage a pushover, which basically means the only things you fear are inopportune hordes, bad spawns or other factors you have little control over.

I don't think there's any other trait that boosts your survivability as much with a single trait as MB, apart from possibly Cateye in certain challenges. It quickly became a personal favorite of mine.

*Edit* That reminds me, the description of the MB trait on the wiki is incorrect, it gives you 75% Melee resistance. Also, the Vampyre trait description on the wiki is likely correct while the in-game one is incorrect. I'll probably remember a few other things that don't match up, they tend to come back to me at random times.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 12:52 by Minaro »
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2017, 17:21 »

Edit: oh, and it seems the guide does not promote Malicious Blades master trait enough. It's really good, i swear :)
Most of the guide was written when malicious blades (and classes) wasn't a thing. I think by the time classes and all the new master traits were released, I was already in diamond runs and didn't have much chance to play with MB.
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horos

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2017, 02:14 »

As for further tips, Horos, maybe I can make another recording to further answer your questions?  Is there a particular challenge you'd like to see me do?

Given the recent situation I don't really feel the nagging need to get my 'skill' to the demonic/angelic badge level before feeling like i've accomplished anything. So in that regard, the advice i've been given is more then enough - after all, you're still at the mercy of the RNG even as the most experienced player.

If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels. I know the two that people I show/get to play the game and seem to have trouble with the most on lower difficulties are Hell's Arena and Phobos Lab, so if you wanted to record something in a general case perhaps those two on N! would be great. As for me? Definitely Hell's Arena and the Anomaly on N! are the hardest (Well, considering you have to go through the latter every run, it feels like a chore without a rocket or a lucky phase device). Please don't feel obligated to do so, though - i'd rather an effort like a recording go towards helping out the community at large rather then just myself. I do appreciate the thought a lot though - you're very kind.

Quote
Malicious Blades

I've see this recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.

Quote
Vampyre

I've used this a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

Thanks again, all. I already mentioned this, but seeing the friendly discussion here really puts a smile on my face.
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2017, 04:13 »

Vampyre:
I've used this a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

You leech health from respawning enemies. :P
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2017, 04:19 »

I've see this recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.
The biggest problem with Berserk is the lack of flexibility, and how screwed you are if you end up in a bad spot. Berserk will never proc from the attacks of most enemies, and even some that may often have to roll in the higher ranges to cause you to go berserk. This problem is even bigger for Marines with their higher health pool (they need a 20 damage hit instead of 16 to go Berserk). Out of all the regular enemies only Barons, Revenants, Mancubuses and Arch-Viles are able to make you go berserk. Out of those the only reliable source is the Arch-Vile, who is guaranteed to make you go berserk unless you increase your maximum health above 60. All the others have an average damage below the threshhold, the baron being the worst case (they do 4-20 damage).

Arachnotrons are often among the worst for any berserk build. They hit hard, their damage can only be significantly reduced by already being berserk or having very specific armors (or Cerberus assemblies) and their attacks are among the hardest in the game to dodge. On top of that they are very fast. If you actually get into melee range with them they're complete pushovers, but in any other scenario they're one of your worst enemies.

The biggest problem is that Arch-Viles are your only guaranteed source of instant berserk, from any other enemy you could theoretically die before you even go berserk. Going berserk on your own usually requires several enemies within short distance of each other since few enemies can withstand enough damage to let you berserk on just one of them, and during that time you'll be taking the full brunt of any attacks aimed at you. Not to mention that once you actually go berserk it is often difficult to keep it running since you'll one-shot most enemies.

MB basically loses out on Acid and Plasma resistance aswell as the double damage and speed boost of being berserk. They also need to keep a knife in their secondary slot, but in exchange they get even more melee resistance than the berserk builds, they already get Dodgemaster as one of their requirements and the most important part - it's always active. MB faces a similar weakness that berserk builds do - they dislike Arachnotrons - but in my honest opinion I haven't played any build that enjoys fighting Arachnotrons unless it's on your own terms. Because they miss out on Acid resistance they're also worse at fighting multiple Barons, but they're better at fighting them in melee - in fact, I'd say MB is the best build at fighting in melee range. Even with basic armors few things will be able to do more than a few points of damage at best.
I often make an "early" P-modded Nanofiber red armor and use that until I find an armor and the mods necessary to make something better. It saves inventory space, at most I'll carry a fireproof red armor (or two) in case I run into multiple Mancubuses and the like.

If you would happen to find both an Onyx mod and an Energy-Shielded Vest on a MB run you might aswell just consider yourself immortal - even without a Nano mod to make it a Cybernano armor you'll still be taking minimal damage from anything that isn't rapid-fire or Barons.

An added benefit of MB is also the fact that if you happen to find a berserk pack you'll have the best of both worlds - much like the Energy-Shielded Vest case you might aswell consider yourself immortal while berserking.

To answer your question about knockback, damage resistance does not reduce knockback - you'll want either your boots, armor or traits to make up for that. That holds true for berserk aswell though.

I may be slightly biased towards MB for multiple reasons, but I've tried to be as objective as I can. My opinion is that the biggest strength of MB is the flexibility compared to berserk builds. Berserk builds often have the potential to do better, but they're at greater risk since they have downtime.

As for Vampyre; I'm currently doing an AoD/A100 N! run with a Vampyre build, and the short answer is basically what Sylph said. A longer answer is that you tend to play slightly differently - depending on your supplies and the layout you may play more cautiously than you normally would, but at the same time you always have the equivelent of access to infinite health orbs as long as you're able to set up a relatively safe position to spawnkill something.
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