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Author Topic: Nightmare advice?  (Read 12570 times)

Thomas

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2017, 04:25 »

If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels.

I'm not very familiar with everyone's Nightmare strategies, but I doubt that many of the special levels on N! are ever worth it even for master players - unless you're going for a badge that requires you to complete one of the harder ones, then it's time to stack corpses and chug health packs. Some of the special levels have specific strategies on UV (like blowing up the Wall in a way condusive to corner-shooting, and out-maneuvering the barons in CC+) but on Nightmare! basically all I have in mind is "which of the following three categories does each special level fall in to"

Can be completed basically just the same as UV:
Carnage, Skulls, Cathedral, that's about it?

Can be ran through without too much fighting or taking damage:
Arena, Lava, Deimos, Armory, etc...

Death trap:
Phobos, CC+, Limbo, etc...
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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2017, 04:32 »

Taking a big hit and going berserk is only possible if you have 50 hp or less, because basically no attack ever deals 1/3 of 60 hp. So if you take Iro or are Marine, you can get blown to hell and Berserker won't help you. It's a good trait, but defensively it prevents you from taking Iro. Also medium damage hits won't trigger berserk and will deal more damage than big hits.

MMB gives you resistance to melee and fire damage all of the time (provided you wear blade in off-hand ofc). Physical attacks are of no threats ever, and should you wear red armor, fire attacks are harmless too. 
Damage wise you're losing to Berserker, but you don't need to activate it or fear it ever runs out. Also you do not need to use pair of blades, you can use one weapon and only attack with it. I used ripper when i did my only angelic badges run.

Requirements: HR2, DM, Fin, Bru2.
All of those except Bru2 are desirable trais for any character, as there is no such thing as being too fast.

Blocks: TaN, Ber, EE.
TaN loss is negligeble, you get defensive passives that basically reduce damage taken to 1, TaN wouldn't help you more at all. Except against plasma but plasma cuts through half of armor, so Tan would only help you so much. Dodge plasma volles instead, you have HR2(3 later) and DM. Badass would be cool, but just take Iro instead. 
Ber loss is not big either, but defensively you get passives and offensively - you are not limited to melee only attacks, you move fast and shoot fast and you can still rip enemies in melee too, just slower than with Ber.
Not having EE is minor annoyance of a sort. WK can alleviate it just a bit though. I won't comment on Intuition loss, as i've practically never played with it, outside some gimmick challenges.

Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.

tl;dr version:
Pros: big survivability boost all of the time, melee damage output is consistent so you don't play like you're on timer. 4 out of 6 trait requirements you want anyway.
Cons: less damage for pure melee builds, much harder to get MMB on AoB, no EE/Intuition.

Edit:
My opinion on special levels:
For me it's basically either all or nothing. Because they get harder and harder, i'd rather do all of the previous levels for rewards and exp. So for my N! Conqueror run most of the special levels outside of first two and Limbo were a cakewalk as i had very high level character and lots of supplies. My useless advice to win them comes down to "be strong and prepared".
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 04:54 by AlterAsc »
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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2017, 04:56 »

That reminds me, the description of the MB trait on the wiki is incorrect, it gives you 75% Melee resistance.
Description fixed on the Wiki.
If you find some other inconstencies, feel free to correct them. If you can't (I believe you can edit the Wiki only with 20+ posts in the forums, or a with Supporter ot higher rank), then ping me and I'll fix that when time permits.
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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2017, 05:47 »

Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.
Right, I completely forgot about that. It's kind of hilarious since I would sometimes find myself taking more damage from wading through acid than lava.
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Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2017, 06:50 »

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2017, 20:58 »

If you really wanted to record something, perhaps a guide to all of the special levels. I know the two that people I show/get to play the game and seem to have trouble with the most on lower difficulties are Hell's Arena and Phobos Lab, so if you wanted to record something in a general case perhaps those two on N! would be great.

Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare!  They come in two flavours:  Pistols and shotguns.  :D  And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels.  I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video.  :)  (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too)  The second video also includes Phobos Lab.

Please don't feel obligated to do so, though - i'd rather an effort like a recording go towards helping out the community at large rather then just myself. I do appreciate the thought a lot though - you're very kind.

Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you?  :)  Anyway, I've been looking for ideas of what to record for a while.  The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos, so I figure if I'm going to go to the effort of making one, it should be something that someone wants to watch.  :)

I've see [Malicious Blades] recommended a lot, actually. Is losing Berserker really worth it? I've personally *never* taken a build with it. It has some great utility clearly, (does the 50% resistance give you less knockback vs sergeants?) especially versus arch-viles, but you lose the great perks that come with berserking. I'll keep an open mind, but could someone detail the benefits for me? Seems like in the cases where i'd appreciate the damage resistance i'd rather take a big hit and go berserk and then smack everything up.

A lot of the benefit of Malicious Blades comes from the Hellrunner and Dodgemaster.  For enemies that fire plasma and acid like Cacodemons, Hell Knights, and Barons, you can go zig-zagging up to them without getting hit and once you're in melee range, you can shred them while only taking one or two points of damage in return.  Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it.  (Side note:  I recommend lots of zig-zagging anyway, since it increases chances of dodging; I do it so much in my games that it's long become second nature)

I haven't played any games with MB for a while, but...  *digs through forum archives* ...I have a couple of notable games from previous versions here and here.  (Sorry those were before I started making videos)  :)

And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once!  :D  I just love the epicness of that concept.  :D

I've used [Vampyre] a lot in lower difficulties for fun but because it blocks hellrunner (A trait that I find quite important on UV - and consequently N!) i've never considered taking it in a serious game on a higher difficulty. Is it worth taking? How do you adapt to the slower movespeed, especially on N! (Assuming it's worth taking, that is)

You've just brought up my all time favourite trait in DRL!  :D  I've had tons of success with a variety of challenges with a Vampyre build.  :)  It's worth noting that being berserk increases your speed, so the speed penalty isn't as bad as you might think, and at all other times, tactical boots are helpful and so is running.  It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build.  :|  In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games.  :)  If you need further proof, I have a Vampyre build N! game where I kill everything with my fists here.  :D  (Including completely clearing Phobos Anomaly!)  :)

I'm not very familiar with everyone's Nightmare strategies, but I doubt that many of the special levels on N! are ever worth it even for master players - unless you're going for a badge that requires you to complete one of the harder ones...

Pretty much...  though it's often prudent to at least *try* the special levels so you can get a bit of extra experience.  For the late game of N!, you need all the leveling up your character can get!

Also MMB fire protection extends to feet too. Lava diving is still not recommended, but not longer deadly.

I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer...

Wow...  I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N!  How times change, eh?  :)
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Thomas

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2017, 21:23 »

I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P

Knife stilts, my dude.

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(
Quote
Wow...  I still remember the days when I had no idea it was possible to get Conqueror in N!  How times change, eh?  :)

Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.

Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2017, 22:52 »

Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?
Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.
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horos

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2017, 01:03 »

You leech health from respawning enemies. :P

I sort of thought the lack of HR getting through the early levels would make it difficult, but...

...Yeah, now that I think about it, it sounds downright dirty. Heh.

Quote from: Minaro
The biggest problem with Berserk is the lack of flexibility, and how screwed you are if you end up in a bad spot. Berserk will never proc from the attacks of most enemies, and even some that may often have to roll in the higher ranges to cause you to go berserk.

Ah, this is pretty good stuff. I'm totally not giving it a go on my next run.

However...Wouldn't it be ridiculous on AoB-

tl;dr version:
Pros: big survivability boost all of the time, melee damage output is consistent so you don't play like you're on timer. 4 out of 6 trait requirements you want anyway.
Cons: less damage for pure melee builds, much harder to get MMB on AoB, no EE/Intuition.

Ah. Yeah, thought so.

Although, that brings up an interesting point. See, I always associated Malicious Blades with "Melee Master Traits" - that is, "You're whacking stuff with the nearest available object! Guns are for wusses!". I never considered actually taking it as part of a utility build - and now i'm starting to understand what the technician class offers (over the brute strength of the Marine class and the ability of the Scout class to recover from bad positions). It seems to put you at a disadvantage early game though (Especially with the 10% speed penalty, but that's mitigated where you can take HR) but gives you a unique advantage mid/late game. Just because a trait is labelled as "xyz master trait" doesn't mean it strictly has to be so - and you don't strictly have to fight with one combat style if taking a master trait.

I also had a good chuckle about MMB giving you feet lava protection. That's practical (if nothing else) - I've lost count of the amount of times I end up cursing after having my only path blocked by a quick lava bath (That rockets won't fix).

I almost always play N! runs as conquerer. I think the special levels are a really interesting exercise in strategic thought. :(

Teach me your ways.

Well, I kind of already have a couple videos of me completing Hell's Arena at Nightmare!  They come in two flavours:  Pistols and shotguns.  :D  And if you click the "show more" button on the description, you'll see I included some handy-dandy buttons that navigate to the start of each of the special levels.  I put those in all of my videos for the convenience of anyone who doesn't feel like watching the whole video.  :)  (It contains a link to the Chaosforge thread where I talk about the run too)  The second video also includes Phobos Lab.

Hey, thanks! I took a quick peek (As i'm busy prepping for the start of courses tomorrow...don't tell anyone!) and I never thought of doing CC+ the way you did so (And have always struggled with it). It's helpful not just for corpse management, but you take a lot less damage, too. Now to see if I can actually pull it off (or something similar at least) next run I do - although I might try on UV first. :p

Graphics have spoiled me, i'm surprised I still understood the ASCII!

Quote
Awww, well, you're part of the community too, aren't you?  :)

Ah, I appreciate it! My time's come and gone, though.

Quote
The forums have been so quiet lately that I can't tell if anyone has been watching my videos

Probably because everyone's waiting on Jupiter Hell (And/or hoping quietly for another DoomRL release sometime!)

Quote
Arachnotrons might still do a bit of damage, but you'll still be going fast enough to dodge most of it.

I always do try and sidestep volley-fire enemies like commandos and chaingunners but most of their volleys hit me anyway (Unlike my plasma rifles, which always seem to miss :P). Is this something innate to volley fire and dodge chance?

Quote
And let's not forget that MB lets you wield and hit with two Chainswords at once!  :D

So MMB is basically this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can get behind that.

Quote
It's also prudent to take cover and lure enemies over to you whenever possible; getting caught in the open without Hellrunner is not fun with any build.  :|  In short, Vampyre is most definitely worth taking in N! games.  :)

So...A camping skill?

Sounds great. Count me in.
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2017, 01:24 »

Knife stilts, my dude.

Malicious Knife Stilts!  :D :D :D

Indeed. Hearing that it's your preferred way of playing N! is quite surprising and might embolden me to take a crack at it some time. It's a shame that none of the badges/medals really encourage it - over things that are literally impossible, like damageless N!, no less.

I agree that playing damageless is a little ridiculous, but there's still Veteran Angelic and Elite Angelic; if you can 100% conquer a N! game, you can get those two.

Are there any special levels (beyond the ones where corpse management is trivial, like Skulls and Carnage) where you feel that you come out in better shape than you went in with, or is it entirely the desire for Conqueror that makes you do them?

If by "better shape" you mean more health, then that eliminates most levels, because they tend not to have a lot of healing sources and the ones that do tend to have some pretty tough opposition.  (Like Mortuary/Limbo)  Other than that, the special levels all provide a certain amount of challenge, so coming out in better shape depends a lot on your skill level; for example, the Wall/Containment Area has no healing and really tough enemies, but unique rewards that I personally find very helpful for my playstyle, (packrat that I am)  :P  so if I feel confident enough with my equipment at the time, I'll give it a try, even though I may lose significant amounts of resources going in.

But as for the "easy" special levels, the basic Chained Court is one.  (And if you're tough enough to take on Hell's Arena, CC+ is comparatively easy)  Possibly Unholy Cathedral if you have Berserker trait?  Vaults can be tricky, but has plenty of cover, assuming you have the means of opening it up, and has huge rewards.  Lava Pits and Mount Erebus could qualify, as long as you have the right equipment (envirosuits or Cerberus boots) and are careful to knock those pesky Revenants into the lava...

Military Base. Just open one of the two middle doors in the starting area, kill the two guards outside, drop a medpack in the doorway and kill them all in melee range. Depending on how patient you are you might risk taking slightly more damage than necessary, but in general you shouldn't take much at all.

Absolutely...  And if you do take damage, there are plenty of healing sources in the crates in the room on the right.  I breathe a sigh of relief every time I get Military Base instead of Phobos Lab.  It is much, much easier.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 01:26 by Tormuse »
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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2017, 02:17 »

I've always thought this is hilarious!  :D  I guess your character is so skilled at waving knives around that they can deflect the lava away from touching your feet?  How does that work?  :P
Excuse my leet paint skillz, but just for fun i imagine it works like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2017, 02:41 »

I always do try and sidestep volley-fire enemies like commandos and chaingunners but most of their volleys hit me anyway (Unlike my plasma rifles, which always seem to miss :P). Is this something innate to volley fire and dodge chance?
Yes and no. I'd advice you to take a look at Dodging on the wiki. Certain kinds of projectiles are easier to dodge than others, and distance plays a part in it aswell. That said, Pistols and Chainguns are among the harder to dodge followed by Arachnotrons and Plasma rifles. Add that to the fact that they fire multiple shots, you're unlikely to dodge everything even when maxed out on Hellrunner unless you're a great distance away from the source. Because of that they tend to be the worst kinds of enemies to run into in an open space (especially Spideys since the others can still be disposed of fairly easily).
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2017, 03:08 »

Excuse my leet paint skillz, but just for fun i imagine it works like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Better than most of my artwork.  :P  I'm still trying to figure out what the brown thing up top is, though.
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Thomas

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2017, 04:06 »

If by "better shape" you mean more health, then that eliminates most levels

[...]

the Wall/Containment Area has no healing and really tough enemies, but unique rewards that I personally find very helpful for my playstyle.

Well, what I meant was more like the second thing you brought up - you leave with a higher "net worth" than you entered with, even if it's only because you place an extremely high value on the backpack. I usually complete 0-2 special levels in an N! run because I don't need anything they're offering. Heck, even on UV I know I'm in the market for a BFG (if I don't have berserker) so that I don't spend 200 turns killing the cyberdemon but I'll skip a lot of the other late special levels.


In the few N! runs I played today I ended up being pleasantly surprised by the difficulty of Hell's Arena, but there's no way CC+ is worth doing! At least now I can go for a guaranteed rocket launcher and, thus, a new way to get through the Anomaly in one piece.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:10 by Thomas »
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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2017, 04:23 »

Better than most of my artwork.  :P  I'm still trying to figure out what the brown thing up top is, though.
Was supposed to be rocket launcher aimed backwards. Alas it seems like i failed.
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