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[Zeb]

Most people seem to agree that Int(3) and AoB need to be nerfed a bit. Here possible solutions I came up with that I think might work, so I though I'd at least throw them out there. :-)

For Int(3), you really would have to change what Int(3) does entirely, but it also has to be useful enough to invest in AND be Doomish without being overpowered. I would suggest a twofold benifit: first having the stairs show up on the map. The second part of it would be an "internal compass"- a line at the top of the sceen (or somewhere else) that tells you how many monsters are in each cardinal direction. The interface would looks something like [N:3 W:11 E: 4 S: 0] and when combined with soundmapping would allow played to find the general path of least resistance across the screen  to the stairs, a batch of nice-looking items, and the like. I think this would make Int(3) useful but not overpowered, as well as relevant in that a seasoned Doom player would know where the exits are and approximately where the monsters would be (But not exactly since monsters move around).

For nerfing AoB, most people point to the aquisition of the chainsaw as the point in which the game changes from being very difficult to being "a cakewalk". The problem this poses is that something like lowering melee accuracy would make the earlygame even harder than it already is, plus it would make the entire game more reliant on luck than skill. My solution would be to target another thing that I feel is more overpowered than the chainsaw, and shows up at about the same time- the ability for large medpacks and healing globes to change the character to berserk mode. This causes a massive balance issue, and I feel is largely responsible for the "cakewalk" difficulty later on. My suggestion is to simply eliminate this bonus. This would not make the already difficult early game harder as such items are not available then, but it would fix the issue of players being able to just rampage their way through the later game (At least compared to the way things are.) This would make the lategame pretty tough, but it would still be possible with good item management and an appropriate skill set- the challenge is supposed to be "Hard" anyway. If this challange were deemed too hard or to easy after this change is implemented, minor across the board changes (Such as changing accuracy rate) could then be implemented without having the deal with the current balance nightmare that messing with AoB causes.

[BDR]

Int 3 has already been massively (though indirectly) nerfed in the current beta, though the current nerf's a bit overdone and doesn't solve the more serious problem of weak AI that's easy to take advantage of (in fact, it actually makes the issue worse according to at least one anecdote).  I don't think your suggestion would work as it sounds a bit messy and overcomplicated; I much prefer the fashion in which Kornel chose to nerf it, which involves knocking down the chance of a hit on things that you can't see (though as mentioned, it's overdone).

I don't really see how you can justify taking away the large medpack's berserk bonus in AoB, mostly because unless you are a god at this game like Blade there's really not much chance to kill the special boss of a certain cathedral without it, and that special level is made specifically for melee characters.  If you're going to take something away entirely from AoB, take away the spoily weapon of doom; being stuck with the chainsaw would very easily put melee players on equal footing with the rest of us.  But if you really want to solve the issue of AoB being unbalanced, I'd suggest going with the more conventional direction of starting players off with a knife instead of just fists to get the early game less based in luck.  For the later game being too easy, advanced AI could solve that problem.

[Zeb]

I'm assuming that's what the note in the livefeed about "hitting a monster outside los has to pass additional 1/10 chance test" is? does that mean you'd have a 1 in 10 chance not to hit, or a 1 in 10 chance to hit at all?

With the "equal footing" comment, I though the point of AoB is that it would be a lot harder than "everyone else" to beat, not equally hard. :-/ And the medkit thing is AoB-only, so if the Cathedral is built for melee characters shouldn't the level be changed so that it can be beaten by melee characters not undergoing the AoB challenge? Otherwise you have an entire level built just for one "challenge" that ends up making the "challenge" easier. :-/

Getting rid of the spoily weapon is a possibility, but in that case why go to the cathedral at all?

[BDR]

As far as I can tell, the part of AoB that makes AoB most challenging is dodging/surviving all the enemy fire that gets thrown at you while you try your darndest to get close enough to hit the bastards.  I'm not the most experienced player but I rather think that concept-wise that makes things pretty difficult by itself.  You used the term "equal footing", not me; I used the term "balanced".  When I said AoB is unbalanced, I meant that the advantages and disadvantages of the challenge are mismatched, such that at the start of the challenge, when all you have are your fists, you are incredibly weak and unless you can either find the stairs, some armor, or a combat knife you'll die pretty quick if you run into too many enemies, and that even just after you find the chainsaw things become a lot easier to handle.  If AoB were balanced, it's not that it wouldn't be difficult; it would instead be consistently difficult yet still possible given enough skill; however, it is not balanced and thus requires some luck in the early game yet becomes a cakewalk later on if you survive the early game when you've got nearly nothing.  How many 100% or even 90%+ AoB games do you see?  Not a lot, and that's because the only way you can really do that is if you can find a knife and some green armors on the second level, which is a small enough chance, AND have enough kits to survive all the hits you're inevitably going to take from sergeants and imps; it's pretty much a given that if you don't just run for the stairs until you get to the CC that you're a goner in AoB.  How many AoB games do you see end after the CC?  Not many either, and that's because if you get there you'll not only gain access to a buttload of fairly easy exp which will probably earn you level 3 or 4 at least, but you'll also snag the second best melee weapon in the game, and get the use of five berserk globes, which will carry you plenty far enough to manage either maxing out Berserk or getting some Hellrunner/TaN/Ironman.  Thus, the discussion, and thus, this topic.  When I mentioned getting rid of the spoily weapon, I wasn't saying it as something I'd really support; just that it would be better to get rid of that than the ability for large medpacks to put you into berserk mode.

Also, that is a 10% chance to *actually* hit something outside your LOS, even if you just saw it and only moved one space away.

[Styro]

I think that the other thing people are forgetting in the "AoB is overpowered" discussion is that most people have only played it on the easiest level (Medium). Of course it is going to be relatively easy. I encourage everyone that thinks AoB should be nerfed to play it on Hard or UV. I don't think you will want it nerfed anymore. Of course it is extremely difficult to get to the chainsaw, but it only becomes "playable" at that point instead of a "cakewalk".

I do think that AoB should be guaranteed a knife in the starting room of level 2, though to make the earlygame less luck-dependant. I don't want the player to start with a knife, because I like the need to punch your way through the first level. :)

[DaEezT]

I think that the other thing people are forgetting in the "AoB is overpowered" discussion is that most people have only played it on the easiest level (Medium). Of course it is going to be relatively easy. I encourage everyone that thinks AoB should be nerfed to play it on Hard or UV. I don't think you will want it nerfed anymore. Of course it is extremely difficult to get to the chainsaw, but it only becomes "playable" at that point instead of a "cakewalk".

I disagree on the difficulty part. Higher difficulty also means (much) more XP and more ammo spawns. I personally found doing AoMr runs on UV easier than on M (pre weapons mods that is). The problem with the difficulties is, that the dangerous monsters still spawn quite late and the biggest part of the mass is still cannon fodder.
The difficulty level only really affects how tough the first ~5 levels are, after that it's not really much of a difference any more.

I do think that AoB should be guaranteed a knife in the starting room of level 2, though to make the earlygame less luck-dependant. I don't want the player to start with a knife, because I like the need to punch your way through the first level. :)

I said something similar once or twice, but nobody listens :p
I'd go one step further and let the AoB player start with a (advanced?)knife, just like the AoMr player starts with an advanced pistol.

[Styro]

I disagree on the difficulty part. Higher difficulty also means (much) more XP and more ammo spawns. I personally found doing AoMr runs on UV easier than on M (pre weapons mods that is). The problem with the difficulties is, that the dangerous monsters still spawn quite late and the biggest part of the mass is still cannon fodder.
The difficulty level only really affects how tough the first ~5 levels are, after that it's not really much of a difference any more.

I agree with this except for AoB games. In Medium AoB games, by the time you run into Barons you have some really great skills. In UV you barely have any yet because you have just recently picked up the chainsaw.

[Zarin]

I disagree on the difficulty part. Higher difficulty also means (much) more XP and more ammo spawns. I personally found doing AoMr runs on UV easier than on M (pre weapons mods that is). The problem with the difficulties is, that the dangerous monsters still spawn quite late and the biggest part of the mass is still cannon fodder.

Well... How about knifing your way through (or even simply evading on your mad run to the stairs) some Hell Knights on level 3?  They are UV regulars there :).  Hell, even simple sergeants can be deadly for an AoB if they are spawned often enough - and on UV they are.
So please don't go nerfing AoB.  At most make the ultimate spoily weapon miss slightly more or feel less protected with it.

FWIW,
    Zarin.

[Fingerzam]

With the "equal footing" comment, I though the point of AoB is that it would be a lot harder than "everyone else" to beat, not equally hard. :-/ And the medkit thing is AoB-only, so if the Cathedral is built for melee characters shouldn't the level be changed so that it can be beaten by melee characters not undergoing the AoB challenge? Otherwise you have an entire level built just for one "challenge" that ends up making the "challenge" easier. :-/

The medkit berserking isn't as essential as you guys make it sound... I'm no Blade and I've cleared the Unholy Cathedral without a single medkit in a non-AoB game. You're almost 100% guaranteed to start berserking on the way if you have Berserker. The more levels in it the better, as you'll get it quicker and it'll replenish often.

So taking out the berserking bonus from large medkits won't ruin the challenge, simply make it more challenging. Though after you get the spear, the game will still be a cakewalk.

[Blade]

About Intuition - i'm now playing exploitless game(game without exploiting AI) in Non-Beta 0985 version(so with old, not nerfed version of Intution), and i can say that without ability to fire outside LOS Intuition*3 becomes not worth picking. Int*2, yes, still good enough, but it's better to pick something more usefull than Int*3. I think that with good AI Intuition*3(not Int*2 nor Int*1) should have an additional ability to locate stairs, this will make it at least a little useful.

About AoB - we have such graph of difficulty on UV

OMG          |     -----*
Really hard |   - 
Pretty hard |-         
Medium      |                              --
Pretty easy|         
Easy          |               --------**
Cakewalk   |                                    -------***
                |_______________________________
                  1 2 3 4 5  CC 6-15     UC  16-25

So imho we need to flat this graph ("*" means problems with difficlty).

* - i prefer Advanced knife at the start.))
** - i agree with Fingerzam that bonus from medikits and large globes should be removed. But this will force player to pick at least Berserk*1 to pass UC. Anyway, i don't think that it's soo bad.
***  - hmm, some nerfing of LS will do the trick.

[Zeb]

You used the term "equal footing", not me

I was referring to

being stuck with the chainsaw would very easily put melee players on equal footing with the rest of us.

Also, that is a 10% chance to *actually* hit something outside your LOS, even if you just saw it and only moved one space away.

Ouch. Oh well. If the stair ability is added for Int3 than you can still combine that with being able to set up traps/find a low-resistance path and the skill will still be useful albeit for different reasons.

So taking out the berserking bonus from large medkits won't ruin the challenge, simply make it more challenging.

So I wasn't talking out of my ass after all. :-P Angel of Berserk IS supposed to be a "Hard" challange, so if it can still be done without the medpack berserking than I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and get rid of that. Nerfing the LS a bit seems like a pretty good idea as well, or else replacing it with a stash of items. Giving AoBers a combat knife or advanced combat knife at the beginning of the game seems like a reasonable idea to me as well. I don't have experiance playing AoB on higher difficulties, but if Blade thinks it's neccessary than I'd say it's a good idea.

[Firstblood]

About nerfing of Int[3] and about the AI in general, could not monsters just start moving directly towards the player's position if he/she shoots them? (like the Workers in AlienRL, but out-of-sight)


I don't know much of programming or any how the AI works but something like:
A flag hit by player Y/N, if hit by player Y, then all of its moves are towards player or players last known co-ordinates at the time of the shot? (until the player comes back into sight)


Or you could be more harsh:
A flag for being aware of the players presence Y/N, if the monster is shot OR sees the player, then all of its moves are towards the player or players last known co-ordinates? (until the player comes back into sight)


Based on the logical premise that the monster knows the direction it got shot or shot at from, or remembers where the player is if it has seen them. - A change like this would obviously make UV harder (and I've not won challenge mode UV yet), but a change might be balanced against other changes in the new version.

[Blade]

I'm playing AoB now and i have one more idea how to make it not too hard on first levels, and not too easy on later levels. How about removing Berserking from large meds and globes(as already said), and making new bonus - protection from shotguns. So you will have +3(+2, +4, choose any) armor against all shotgun attacks. This will make this shotgun guys not so annoying in AoB.

[DaEezT]

IMO it would be enough to remove the berserk effect from med kits. Large globes are fine, since they are stationary.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Meaning you need Berserker to tackle the Cathedral? :]