DRL > Discussion

Ideas for nerfing Int(3) and AoB.

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Zeb:
Most people seem to agree that Int(3) and AoB need to be nerfed a bit. Here possible solutions I came up with that I think might work, so I though I'd at least throw them out there. :-)

For Int(3), you really would have to change what Int(3) does entirely, but it also has to be useful enough to invest in AND be Doomish without being overpowered. I would suggest a twofold benifit: first having the stairs show up on the map. The second part of it would be an "internal compass"- a line at the top of the sceen (or somewhere else) that tells you how many monsters are in each cardinal direction. The interface would looks something like [N:3 W:11 E: 4 S: 0] and when combined with soundmapping would allow played to find the general path of least resistance across the screen  to the stairs, a batch of nice-looking items, and the like. I think this would make Int(3) useful but not overpowered, as well as relevant in that a seasoned Doom player would know where the exits are and approximately where the monsters would be (But not exactly since monsters move around).

For nerfing AoB, most people point to the aquisition of the chainsaw as the point in which the game changes from being very difficult to being "a cakewalk". The problem this poses is that something like lowering melee accuracy would make the earlygame even harder than it already is, plus it would make the entire game more reliant on luck than skill. My solution would be to target another thing that I feel is more overpowered than the chainsaw, and shows up at about the same time- the ability for large medpacks and healing globes to change the character to berserk mode. This causes a massive balance issue, and I feel is largely responsible for the "cakewalk" difficulty later on. My suggestion is to simply eliminate this bonus. This would not make the already difficult early game harder as such items are not available then, but it would fix the issue of players being able to just rampage their way through the later game (At least compared to the way things are.) This would make the lategame pretty tough, but it would still be possible with good item management and an appropriate skill set- the challenge is supposed to be "Hard" anyway. If this challange were deemed too hard or to easy after this change is implemented, minor across the board changes (Such as changing accuracy rate) could then be implemented without having the deal with the current balance nightmare that messing with AoB causes.

BDR:
Int 3 has already been massively (though indirectly) nerfed in the current beta, though the current nerf's a bit overdone and doesn't solve the more serious problem of weak AI that's easy to take advantage of (in fact, it actually makes the issue worse according to at least one anecdote).  I don't think your suggestion would work as it sounds a bit messy and overcomplicated; I much prefer the fashion in which Kornel chose to nerf it, which involves knocking down the chance of a hit on things that you can't see (though as mentioned, it's overdone).

I don't really see how you can justify taking away the large medpack's berserk bonus in AoB, mostly because unless you are a god at this game like Blade there's really not much chance to kill the special boss of a certain cathedral without it, and that special level is made specifically for melee characters.  If you're going to take something away entirely from AoB, take away the spoily weapon of doom; being stuck with the chainsaw would very easily put melee players on equal footing with the rest of us.  But if you really want to solve the issue of AoB being unbalanced, I'd suggest going with the more conventional direction of starting players off with a knife instead of just fists to get the early game less based in luck.  For the later game being too easy, advanced AI could solve that problem.

Zeb:
I'm assuming that's what the note in the livefeed about "hitting a monster outside los has to pass additional 1/10 chance test" is? does that mean you'd have a 1 in 10 chance not to hit, or a 1 in 10 chance to hit at all?

With the "equal footing" comment, I though the point of AoB is that it would be a lot harder than "everyone else" to beat, not equally hard. :-/ And the medkit thing is AoB-only, so if the Cathedral is built for melee characters shouldn't the level be changed so that it can be beaten by melee characters not undergoing the AoB challenge? Otherwise you have an entire level built just for one "challenge" that ends up making the "challenge" easier. :-/

Getting rid of the spoily weapon is a possibility, but in that case why go to the cathedral at all?

BDR:
As far as I can tell, the part of AoB that makes AoB most challenging is dodging/surviving all the enemy fire that gets thrown at you while you try your darndest to get close enough to hit the bastards.  I'm not the most experienced player but I rather think that concept-wise that makes things pretty difficult by itself.  You used the term "equal footing", not me; I used the term "balanced".  When I said AoB is unbalanced, I meant that the advantages and disadvantages of the challenge are mismatched, such that at the start of the challenge, when all you have are your fists, you are incredibly weak and unless you can either find the stairs, some armor, or a combat knife you'll die pretty quick if you run into too many enemies, and that even just after you find the chainsaw things become a lot easier to handle.  If AoB were balanced, it's not that it wouldn't be difficult; it would instead be consistently difficult yet still possible given enough skill; however, it is not balanced and thus requires some luck in the early game yet becomes a cakewalk later on if you survive the early game when you've got nearly nothing.  How many 100% or even 90%+ AoB games do you see?  Not a lot, and that's because the only way you can really do that is if you can find a knife and some green armors on the second level, which is a small enough chance, AND have enough kits to survive all the hits you're inevitably going to take from sergeants and imps; it's pretty much a given that if you don't just run for the stairs until you get to the CC that you're a goner in AoB.  How many AoB games do you see end after the CC?  Not many either, and that's because if you get there you'll not only gain access to a buttload of fairly easy exp which will probably earn you level 3 or 4 at least, but you'll also snag the second best melee weapon in the game, and get the use of five berserk globes, which will carry you plenty far enough to manage either maxing out Berserk or getting some Hellrunner/TaN/Ironman.  Thus, the discussion, and thus, this topic.  When I mentioned getting rid of the spoily weapon, I wasn't saying it as something I'd really support; just that it would be better to get rid of that than the ability for large medpacks to put you into berserk mode.

Also, that is a 10% chance to *actually* hit something outside your LOS, even if you just saw it and only moved one space away.

Styro:
I think that the other thing people are forgetting in the "AoB is overpowered" discussion is that most people have only played it on the easiest level (Medium). Of course it is going to be relatively easy. I encourage everyone that thinks AoB should be nerfed to play it on Hard or UV. I don't think you will want it nerfed anymore. Of course it is extremely difficult to get to the chainsaw, but it only becomes "playable" at that point instead of a "cakewalk".

I do think that AoB should be guaranteed a knife in the starting room of level 2, though to make the earlygame less luck-dependant. I don't want the player to start with a knife, because I like the need to punch your way through the first level. :)

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