DRL > Century Lounge
[U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
iainuki:
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---Not necessarily - but on N!, they spawn earlier and with larger numbers of enemies than on U.
--- End quote ---
Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV. On N! they can start at 43. Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big. The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---And as I mentioned, there are worse types of caves that can also spawn - I mentioned Shamblers and Cyberdemons, which are both worse than even Nightmare Arachnotrons. Lava and Agony Elemental Caves are also possible, and without fire immunity, Cyberdemons and Lava Elementals are all but certain death.
--- End quote ---
Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them? Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies. Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem? Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---Agony Elementals aren't quite so deadly, but clearing them with ammo is almost impossible, and clearing them with melee can be extremely painful - I don't think I'd want to try it without Vampire, which imposes some rather problematic restrictions on your build path.
--- End quote ---
A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build. I don't think melee is required.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---There are also Nightmare Demon caves, which are an absolute atrocity to survive, much less clear.
--- End quote ---
FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble. Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---Ultimately, the point I was making is that there are a hell of a lot of ways to end an AAo666 run, especially on Nightmare!, and a lot of those ways are out of your control as a player - if you get a bad level/spawn, you need to flee or die, and a prospective YAAM run prevents fleeing, leaving only death as an option.
--- End quote ---
Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list. (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 15:15 ---While I certainly still believe it's within the realm of possibility, I think it's easily more challenging than almost any Angelic badge in existence - certainly it's a big step farther than the associated Angelic badge, Centurial Angelic. If it were an actual challenge, I'd call it Archangelic Centurial - but of course, we don't need such a category when only a handful of players can even touch the ordinary Angelics =P
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;). This one is merely almost impossible.
Sereg:
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV. On N! they can start at 43. Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big. The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.
--- End quote ---
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, without a lucky invulnerability globe on the previous floor, these would be incredibly dangerous, and I'm also not sure how I'd approach one.
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them? Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies. Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem? Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?
--- End quote ---
It's been a long time since I've played much, so maybe my memory is not quite perfectly accurate, but I recall shamblers as being very accurate and doing very high damage. Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you. Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build. I don't think melee is required.
--- End quote ---
You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble. Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.
--- End quote ---
Jackhammer was actually probably a lot more clutch there than you think - most other shotguns don't have the same potential for AoE knockback even in a single firing, and nothing else offers multiple bursts prior to a reload. A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be helpful here, but offers far less damage per shot(meaning both less killing potential and less knockback), putting you in severe danger of being surrounded and overwhelmed. However, you make a valid point - with proper positioning and a reasonably powerful shotgun build, they might not be run-ending.
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list. (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.
--- Quote from: iainuki on April 08, 2020, 18:52 ---I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;). This one is merely almost impossible.
--- End quote ---
Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.
Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)
Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?
Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).
iainuki:
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 19:58 ---Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you. Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.
--- End quote ---
This is a very similar problem to mancubi, who do somewhat less damage per rocket but fire more rockets. Having been in some of these situations, I'm not convinced that fire immunity per se is necessary, high resistance and some protection has been sufficient for me to take on mancubi even with a lot of cover destruction and being knocked around by multiple rockets every turn. If I understand the mechanics right, nightmare arachnotrons are so dangerous because they fire 6 shots, each of which can only independently be reduced to 1 damage by plasma resistance, so no matter what you're taking 6 damage/enemy action (if they hit) without Survivalist? A Cyberdemon only has 1 rocket so can do 1 damage/action assuming enough resistance and protection, while mancubi do 3 damage/action. The damage from Cyberdemons and mancubi can also be limited more easily with Dodgemaster, which doesn't do much against nightmare arachnotrons.
Lava elementals do napalm the floor but you're going to need some means of walking on lava, the Inquisitor Set, the phaseshift set, or cerberus boots.
I think clearing nightmare arachnotron caves is going to be the riskiest task for Centurial Nightmare Ao100/Ao666.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 19:58 ---You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.
--- End quote ---
Or include melee in the build. I don't know what the right combination of traits for attempting this is, though I suspect that master traits may not be the direction you want to go.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 19:58 ---Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.
--- End quote ---
You're not going to try it ;)?
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 19:58 ---Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.
--- End quote ---
Okay, I grant that it's a possibility. I hadn't seen that run before you pointed me to it. For some reason searching didn't find it.
--- Quote from: Sereg on April 08, 2020, 19:58 ---Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)
Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?
Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).
--- End quote ---
Either of those would be impressively difficult, I agree. That Ao100/Ao666 late-game floors are harder than any floors in the normal speedruns would also make the challenges significantly harder, IMO.
ih8regin:
Cyberdemon vs mancubi - there are more differences than just HP pool. First, cybies target, mancubi wander, thus you will always get all the cyberdemons up your face in a small amount of time after entering a level with them, while you can evade most of the mancubi should you hide in a corner and knockback all of visible ones out of range. Second, cybies have more range than the player, meaning you will get rockets fired at you from off screen, and should you play say MAc, this would mean they always will have an edge over you without fire protection, mancubi have equal sight radius. Third, cyberdemons are immune to (their own only, or all cybies'? Unclear) splash, from at least their own attacks, so MAYBE two cybies can eventually kill each other should you say reload a plasma shrapnel being invulnerable, but mancubi DEFINITeLY aren't immune so if caught in crossfire, you have a decent chance to both dodge all mancubi rockets, provided you are at range, and kill some of them while not firing a single shot, but you cannot do the same vs cyberdemons.
Sereg:
All valid points.
I remember at one point someone had posted a screenshot of a cyberdemon complex they encountered during an Ao100 run... it was nuts. There were 10 or more all on the screen at once in a circle around the player, with more on the way - like ih8regin said, they track down the player and they're literally everywhere on the level. I went looking for the screenshot, but wasn't able to find the mortem I saw it in, unfortunately.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version