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[U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

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iainuki:

--- Quote from: ih8regin on April 10, 2020, 22:00 ---Cyberdemon vs mancubi - there are more differences than just HP pool. First, cybies target, mancubi wander, thus you will always get all the cyberdemons up your face in a small amount of time after entering a level with them, while you can evade most of the mancubi should you hide in a corner and knockback all of visible ones out of range. Second, cybies have more range than the player, meaning you will get rockets fired at you from off screen, and should you play say MAc, this would mean they always will have an edge over you without fire protection, mancubi have equal sight radius. Third, cyberdemons are immune to (their own only, or all cybies'? Unclear) splash, from at least their own attacks, so MAYBE two cybies can eventually kill each other should you say reload a plasma shrapnel being invulnerable, but mancubi DEFINITeLY aren't immune so if caught in crossfire, you have a decent chance to both dodge all mancubi rockets, provided you are at range, and kill some of them while not firing a single shot, but you cannot do the same vs cyberdemons.

--- End quote ---

Fair points.  Assuming we're in a situation with enough armor to reduce their fire damage to 1, how much worse does that make them?  Does everyone who plays Ao666 immediately flee levels with all Cyberdemons?

Sereg:
If you don't have the inquisitor's set by then? Yeah, pretty much =P Maybe on an easier difficulty, where you're very deep, well equipped, and highly talented before they appear, it could be doable by other means, but on a Nightmare! run where they can show up relatively early, trying to stay and fight is very likely to end the run.

iainuki:
I found a first person account of a Cyberdemon complex on level 71 in a UV Ao100 game: https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6379.msg55396.html#msg55396.  I think Radagast did manage to kill them all, though narrowly.  Their rockets do hurt each other, apparently.

They would have more HP on Nightmare.  I don't know how cybernano phaseshift compares to cerberus armor for protection with various levels of TaN, but clearly if you wanted to undertake this insanity I'd suggest some serious study of how to maximize protection against nightmare arachnotrons and cyberdemons with reasonably common starting ingredients.  It clearly is possible to full clear one, though, even without the Inquisitor's Set.  You do need to be lucky with gear, and Radagast's Scavenger helped there.

papilio also thinks speedrunner angelic is impossible: "UAC/Demonic/Speedrunner Angelic is just absolutely impossible, at least I think."  (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7235.msg63680.html#msg63680)

Sereg:
One quick comment on Radagast's run - note that his final killcount of Cyberdemons is 17, and he only missed one kill the entire game, meaning, at most there were only 18 on that floor, and he only claims 8-9 of them were present there(the rest were probably randomly wandering other levels, as they do on Ao100). Even those few apparently gave him almost too much trouble to prevail - and as you say, that's only a UV game. On N!, not only does the HP go up, but so do the numbers, and numbers continue to increase the deeper you find the complex... and this was about the earliest it's possible to find one.

While it certainly goes to show that there are ways to take down multiple cyberdemons at once even without immunity, I still have very strong doubts about the possibility of clearing a much larger complex of Nightmare! class cyberdemons without fire immunity. You are right that very careful research, or game knowledge, would be a huge help to such a run, allowing a player to prepare optimally for any situation they encounter(at least to the extent allowed by the RNG).

Papilio's ranking is certainly an interesting thread - do note that he lists challenges of higher difficulty(Strongman and Everyman come to mind), albeit not necessarily Luck and Skill, which have since been completed. I also do think that there's something to be said for experience and instinct over repeated Speedrunner attempts, and that grinding it long enough will eventually allow a victory. I'll concede, however, that he is definitely one of the best verifiable players this game has ever seen(behind only Tormuse in Angelics, and his Diamond count is actually even higher!), and I grant a lot of weight to his assessments here as a result.

One thing I strongly agree with him on is the Pacifism Angelic - which he rates at 30 luck and grind, and the same difficulty as Speedrunner. I'm pretty sure that if any Angelic badge is statistically impossible, it's this one, and I'd be hard-pressed to find a way to upgrade it to Archangelic level - I contend it's already there =P

iainuki:

--- Quote from: Sereg on April 12, 2020, 13:08 ---One quick comment on Radagast's run - note that his final killcount of Cyberdemons is 17, and he only missed one kill the entire game, meaning, at most there were only 18 on that floor, and he only claims 8-9 of them were present there(the rest were probably randomly wandering other levels, as they do on Ao100). Even those few apparently gave him almost too much trouble to prevail - and as you say, that's only a UV game. On N!, not only does the HP go up, but so do the numbers, and numbers continue to increase the deeper you find the complex... and this was about the earliest it's possible to find one.

--- End quote ---

For comparison, in the UV run I just finished I only saw 5 cyberdemons the whole game.  I am definitely too lazy to look through other UV Ao100 mortems to try to get an average count of cyberdemons with and without a cyberdemon complex, but I suspect that Radagast's "8 or 9" was actually an undercount of the total cyberdemons on that level :).  Maybe they were only estimating how many were actually visible at the same time?


--- Quote from: Sereg on April 12, 2020, 13:08 ---Papilio's ranking is certainly an interesting thread - do note that he lists challenges of higher difficulty(Strongman and Everyman come to mind), albeit not necessarily Luck and Skill, which have since been completed. I also do think that there's something to be said for experience and instinct over repeated Speedrunner attempts, and that grinding it long enough will eventually allow a victory. I'll concede, however, that he is definitely one of the best verifiable players this game has ever seen(behind only Tormuse in Angelics, and his Diamond count is actually even higher!), and I grant a lot of weight to his assessments here as a result.

One thing I strongly agree with him on is the Pacifism Angelic - which he rates at 30 luck and grind, and the same difficulty as Speedrunner. I'm pretty sure that if any Angelic badge is statistically impossible, it's this one, and I'd be hard-pressed to find a way to upgrade it to Archangelic level - I contend it's already there =P

--- End quote ---

I think UAC, Demonic, Speedrunner, and Pacifism are the Angelics that haven't been beaten?  I agree that Pacifism is the most impossible of them, followed closely by Demonic.  I think papilio probably thinks no one has the amount of time it would take to get Speedrunner given that they rated it luck 27 and grind 23 :). Their ratings of the rest of the angelics look broadly reasonable to my eye.  They give Everyman a higher skill rating but lower luck and grind ratings, which is consistent with Tormuse having since achieved it.

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