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Author Topic: Your traits of choice?  (Read 15996 times)

Karry

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2007, 14:49 »

Quote
Weakest... yessss... repeat that after taking a point-blank shot of double shotty...
Which is, apparently, 2 or 3 times weaker than RL blast.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2007, 14:51 »

Which is, apparently, 2 or 3 times weaker than RL blast.
O'Rly?
Double Shotgun is (6d3)x2 = 12-36 (24 avg) always hitting damage at point blank
Rocket Launcher is 4d4 = 4-16 (10 avg) damage and can miss

I suggest you re-learn maths
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TFoN

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2007, 14:57 »

Karry's talking about this.

I suspect there's something wrong with the evidence, but it's certainly worth checking out.

Karry

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 15:37 »

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I suggest you re-learn maths
I suggest Kornel re-learn math.
Or re-look through the code.

Or the simplest way - just change the descriptions so that weapon damage is displayed accordingly.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 15:46 by Karry »
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Firstblood

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 16:55 »

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almost unhurt = 49-46 HP (98%-92%)
scratched = 45-41 HP (90%-82%)
lightly wounded = 40-36 HP (80%-72%)
wounded = 35-26 HP (70%-52%)
heavily wounded = 25-16 HP (50%-36%)
severely wounded = 17-11 HP (34%-22%)
mortally wounded = 10-6 HP (20%-12%)
almost dead = 5-1 HP (10%-2%)

I can confirm these are correct and work for monsters.
Its tricky and time-consuming using them to determine damage, but I was already doing that prior to this topic. So I have fairly good idea of weapon damages.

I've not used them to judge SoaB and SoaG differences though. I just use number of shots to kill to test that. You are correct in that using them would be more accurate. Its hard because damage is random, but if we can work out monsters damage to us, its not that much harder working out our damage to them, we just dont have an exact % value of their health (we only have a range as given above).

A direct hit with a rocket does indeed deal more damage than a point blank shotty blast. I'm not so sure about double shotty, but my comment about shotguns being the weakest weapon is based more on the fact, that you generally have to close with enemies to deal them much damage, which leads to loss of health, whereas with the RL, CG and PR you deal damage efficiently at long range.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 16:59 »

Uhm, I wanted to remind you all that Shotgun weapons loose a lot damage each square they travel. The listed damage only applies to "face on" hit.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

Firstblood

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2007, 18:53 »

I'm torn between Ironman and TaN. First of all I make some assumptions.


1. 5 ways to heal to 100% and 3 ways to heal less than 100% after dlvl 4. I think the 5 ways occur more regularly, so I assume most/all heals are full ones.

2. To get 99% efficiency from TaN between heals, you need to be reduced to 2% health. This is quite risky, whereas healing with Ironman always gives an extra 10, 20 or 30 hp on top of what you have.

3. When in danger, my armor will always be at least [2]. This could be Blue armor, or damaged Red armor. Armor has been quite plentiful for me in 0.985. This is probably actually the best condition for TaN, so all my calculations have been made with this value. Having less or more than 2 armor can make TaN less valuable as explained below.

4. Almost forgot this one, but I'm assuming you're being attacked at long range, and I used average damage. Calculation for every possible damage combination from all monsters would take forever. TaN is extremely useful against melee damage, as melee damage is typically lower than ranged damage and is also in the optimal range for TaN, because its just high enough that Red Armor+TaN 3 would reduce most melee damage to 1 hp, although there is still wastage against Former Humans, Lost Souls and Arachs, as their melee damage is tiny and will be 1 hp with Red Armor regardless.


Regardless of the assumptions, there are certainties:

Ironman is the superior trait against JC, CD, AVile, Baron, HK. No matter what armor you're wearing.
These are some of the more dangerous enemies. Mancubus is probably in this list too.

TaN is "probably" the superior trait against Cacodemon, Imp and usually Shotgun Former Human.
There enemies are less dangerous than the above.


Now, you might be wondering why I haven't said TaN is always better against Arachs, Former Commandos and Former Captains. These are all high damage enemies and worth a mention. The reason is because, if you're wearing Red Armor, you will notice barely any difference at all, as most of the damage they deal to you will be reduced to 1 hp by the Red Armor, and (I'm not certain, but quite sure) TaN doesn't reduce damage of 1 hp to 0 hp.

Of course, Red Armor doesn't last forever, and this is where TaN kicks in and could save your life. I just feel that Ironman is overall more useful as it doesn't rely as much on which enemies you face and what armor you wear, and its condition. Besides in optimal conditions, when one Red Armour gets damaged, you switch to an undamaged one.


In the best case scenarios, TaN is as much as a 33-100% improvement on your ability to withstand damage. We are mainly talking Arachs, Cacodemons, Imps and Former Humans types with Blue Armor/damaged Red armor. So TaN is good if Arachnotron is your worst nemesis. There is a lot of potentional for Arachnotron caves in the later stages, and you will definitely encounter more Arachs than Archviles, so its a valid argument for TaN. Personal preference I think.

Heh I'm almost convincing myself to take TaN, but I think I'll stick with Ironman. If you have a melee fighter, TaN is considerably more worthwhile IMO, but melee fighters typically take both Ironman and TaN anyway, and when you're berserking you can kill everything in 1 hit (in fact the chainsaw is 1-2 hit kill weapon anyway), however you could still get surrounded or rush an enemy and have him hit first, so you will see the melee use of TaN more.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 19:14 by Firstblood »
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Rook

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2007, 23:54 »

I've been curious as of late. After playing more AoM games, I've discovered that SoaG really isn't working like I think it would. The firing time reduction seems to work fine. (3 levels in this, plus 1+ in Finesse, and I can unload entire clips into monsters before they can blink) Thing is, the damage doesn't seem to work like it should. Maybe I missed something obvious here, but the wiki seems to indicate that with 2 levels in SoaG, all former humans without armor, as well as imps, should die in 2 bullets. However, 9 out of 10 times, I need 3+ bullets to kill any of them, even with 3 levels in SoaG. Is there something I've missed here (Which will make this nice little paragraph, and myself, look very stupid)? Or is there something odd about how the SoaG damage boost works?
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Karry

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2007, 00:48 »

Quote
Uhm, I wanted to remind you all that Shotgun weapons loose a lot damage each square they travel. The listed damage only applies to "face on" hit.
THAT is why i said "point blank", didnt i ? Shotguns are STILL weaker.
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BDR

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2007, 01:17 »

In another matter, if I play AoM and manage to find another Advanced pistol, how can I choose which pistol I put my mods on?

I hate to be the major buzzkiller, but as of this version it's impossible to switch pistols, and you can only put mods on your active weapon (the one in your hands ready to kill).  This means that, sadly, a second advanced pistol is actually worth just as much as a regular pistol in AoMr.  If you want to be able to pimp out two advanced pistols, you'll have to play a regular game, and you'll have to be damn lucky (or savescumming, which by the way please don't, or else God will kill a former foo before its time) too, since you won't start with any to begin with.
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DaEezT

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2007, 03:20 »

I hate to be the major buzzkiller, but as of this version it's impossible to switch pistols, [...]
Small correction: You never could switch weapons in AoMr, which is also why it was so damn hard in 0.9.8.5.
You can turn that pistol into a cannon if you take Wizzkid and find enough mods :)
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"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Thomas

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2007, 04:47 »

Normal game (Any difficulty, I just love this strat so.)

EE->EE->Int->Int->Int->TaN->TaN->TaN->EE->What I feel like at the time.

EE because staying in coward the whole time for 80% dodge and 95% hit is just so very nice.
Int because it's very very handy when I'm on low HP (which happens to be a lot of the time...)
TaN because you need all the armour you can get, really.

AoB/AoLT game:

Brute->Brute->Berserk->Berserk->Berserk->Brute->TaN->TaN->TaN->What I feel like at the time.

Brute so I can actually kill stuff.
Berserker so when I'm facing the AoD, there's a good chance I'll be berserk the whole way through.
TaN because you need all the armour you can get, really.

AoMr game:

SoaG->SoaG->DG->DG->SoaG->Fin->Fin->Fin->TaN->TaN

SoaG to get extra damage, super speed and DG.
DG to get double damage. (Whee, damage.)
Fin to get EVEN MORE speed! (Whee, speed.)
TaN because... you know. More armour. (Whee.)

By level 7, you're holding 2 chainguns that need to be reloaded a bit more than normal.

AoI game:

Hellrunner

Hellrunner because I am not getting to level 15 without running like the whimpy chump I am.
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Rook

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2007, 05:24 »

AoMr game:

SoaG->SoaG->DG->DG->SoaG->Fin->Fin->Fin->TaN->TaN

Heh...A man after my own trigger finger. Just one question...Wouldn't you technically get a bigger boost from maxing out SoaG before leveling up dualgunner again? No offense, since I like your strategy, I'm just very technical-minded sometimes.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 05:25 by Rook »
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TFoN

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2007, 09:19 »

Normally yes (and this has been discussed thoroughly becuse we're are technical-minded sometimes :) ), but the SoaG damage bonus may be broken and therefore out of the calculation, giving only a speed bonus which, while entirely worthwhile, makes SoaG(2)+DG(1) better than SoaG(3).


Playing 0987 I've been exploring various new possibilities, but my favorite's likely to still involve Intuition(3). Right now I like a combination Whizkid/Intuition, topped off with an early Juggler. I haven't actually played it fully yet, but I've decided it's likely to be the best it can get. My longest game so far (out of 5-6 I've done in total) ended on Phobos Hell 1, at clvl 10. That char had the above trait list, though with Cateye(1) and TaN(1) instead of ranks in Intuition, and an advanced RL stuffed so full of mods that it made me consider just how relient we're bound to become.

Potman

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Re: Your traits of choice?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2007, 15:22 »

To honor the new release, I'm gonna bump this thread.

Yeah you'd imagine that the fixed shotguns would drive me towards Reloader and Shottyman a lot nowadays, and at first I indeed messed a lot more with shotguns than I had for the entire rest of the year. However, I've also found the new working Son of a Bitch extremely seductive. So either I play with shotgun, in which case it's Reloader x2, Shottyman, Ironman x2, Badass x3, and Hellrunner x2. Or I go for chaingun/plasma, and pick Eagle Eye x1, SoaB x2, Triggerhappy x1, Finesse x3, SoaB x1, Ironman x2 - the goal is to dish out as much of hot metal in as little time as possible.
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