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Topics - Icy

Pages: [1] 2
I wanted to test out Army of the Dead this time now that Finesse is no longer blocked, as well as Reloader getting significantly buffed. I'd say that these changes have made the master trait much more balanced and very usable!

Reloader helps a lot with the start of the game, along with the Marine's new resistance buffs. With Whizkid down the road, you can create powerful weapons like you could with any other build, but now actually exceed their power since the piercing effect or Army of the Dead isn't compromised by being limited in weapons or being entirely outclassed by Nano-Shrapnel.

Coincidentally, I found a Nano Pack which would normally be used for Nano-Shrapnel, but I decided to make a Focused Double Shotgun (N) to make more use of Army of the Dead. It was excellent on anything it could kill in one shot, which was a lot, and I had other weapons while it recharged. Finesse allowing access to Juggler also supported this.

I was also very lucky to find Jackhammer in Deimos Lab, which is extremely powerful with Army of the Dead, and its ammo-hungry nature was complemented by my semi-infinite Focused Double Shotgun. I mostly used a Tactical Shotgun until finding Assault Shotgun in The Vaults, and was able to make a strong non-assembly out of it too.

I went for a full win with 100% kills, although I skipped Unholy Cathedral since I didn't have any reliable way to deal with Angel of Death.

Overall, Army of the Dead is very playable now!

Here is a video of me clearing The Mortuary using only Jackhammer.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Post Mortem / ( BETA 2) [U|100%|YAFW] Vampyre is IDDQD
« on: January 10, 2024, 20:01 »
Full video (note that sound is buggy with SDL)

With Beta 2 of the new version out, there's lots of theorycrafting about balance. One concern right now is Vampyre, which is already very strong, but has indirectly been given a lot of buffs with the Marine now having 20% natural resistance to Plasma, Acid, and Fire, and Ironman increasing Melee, Bullet, and Shrapnel resistances by 10% each level, giving a total of 50% at Ironman x5.

In one try, I successfully completed a standard game on Ultra-Violence with 100% kills as a conqueror and fully won the game, and the game itself was trivial to complete.

Some highlights:

MAJOR BUG: I somehow overlooked this until late into the game, but with Ironman x5 and Berserk, resistances for Melee, Bullet, and Shrapnel went uncapped and actually reached 110%, where I literally was taking zero damage to those types while Berserk. The issue I believe is Ironman doesn't have a cap set. It would also be good to ensure there is a cap for the natural resistances to Plasma, Acid, and Fire.

Minor bug: When picking up Azrael's Scythe, for some reason the game messaged "You don't have an Azrael's Scythe!" I'm not sure if this was because it was the first time picking it up for this player profile, but it looked odd.

The Marine's natural resistances are actually a huge buff not only in general, but for the early bonus levels as well. Hell's Arena was much easier with damage reduction against Cacodemons and Barons, and similar for The Chained Court with Arena Master and more Barons. This actually adds a lot more incentive to play Marine instead of just Scout all the time now and think it's great!

I definitely experienced the increase in Chainsaw generation as I happened to find two of them after The Chained Court.

On top of Vampyre being very powerful, I was also fairly fortunate with gear as I got Red Armor (O), Hellwave Pack (great for clearly Limbo/The Mortuary), and an Assault Shotgun.

I exited Limbo with 200% health, despite not using any healing items or cheesing to heal. I even played aggressively and had no issues.

My kill count was 1,337 lol.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

While there is discussion to not have the medal Zen Master's Cross, I decided to try to go for it anyway. The medal requires that all kills are in the "other" category, as opposed to "fists", "knives", "pistols", or "shotgun". Other kills only seemingly count in-fighting, nukes, enemies dying in fluids, and other means of kills that are not directly from your weapon. One of the nice new features is that if for example, you are holding a Shotgun and a Demon dies in acid, it doesn't count as a "shotgun" kill but an "other" kill. Note that weapons of different categories such as Chainsaw, Rocket Launcher, etc will still count towards your kills in a general sense. The stipulation for this medal is that "Other" kills matches your total kills.

I figured the easiest way to earn this is Angel of Overconfidence + Angel of Berserk, so that I start near the end of the game, and can grab the Nuclear BFG as a way to kill The Spider Mastermind since there aren't any other ways to kill it. After a few tries, I got it pretty fast.

I saved the Chainsaw boost until entering Mortuary.

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And lucky me, there were no Archviles on the right side.

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After that, I continued on my way to the Spider Mastermind, blew up Dis, and got this strange medal!

Here's the mortem:

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As amusing as this was, I still think this medal should be swapped for a different idea.

Tonight, I decided to do a more thorough game of the new version and still having a lot of limitations on what modes I can play, I went for a pure Angel of Light Travel. I was considering going for a conqueror, but I quickly remembered that the inventory space doesn't quite allow for it. Despite that, I got pretty close anyway.

Like Omega Tyrant reported, I had the same freeze regarding killing streaks, where you can clearly see that I took damage but didn't lose my kill streak. I'm thinking that it's just the current value that's bugged.

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Some Schematics. Like I suggested, I'm not a fan of these since it doesn't let games be truly independent. Newer players still collecting all the assemblies definitely could use the extra Mod Pack more than I would too.

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Hellrunner + Tactical Armor appear to be working correctly here for the dodging bonus. I would like to see it change while running too though.

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I encountered a lever that blows up walls and was expecting a single explosion sound like Omega Tyrant described. It seems like each wall tile individually made the sound as I felt like I was about to go deaf.

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I found a nuke and blew up Containment Area, but then also triggered the trap. I mentioned this in the suggestions thread, but overlooked nuking the level should disable the trap.

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I wasn't intending to enter Abyssal Plains, but found both Trigun and Invulnerability on the floor before lol.

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Similar to Containment Area, this map is a little buggy when you blow it up first.

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I encountered a darkness level! Everything seemed to work as intended with stair sense not working, no respawns, and the darkness was maintained. Very cool!

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I also found Mjollnir. Having tossed Chainsaw earlier, this opened up yet another possibility for conquering a level. However, finding this seemed to be more of a curse as I later found.

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This was a goofy weapon to be using against the Cyberdemon, but I made it work.

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Having not used Mjollnir before, I noticed that alternate firing visually showed its range. Is this new to the version or is this normal?

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My kill streak increased to 108 it seems.

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Example of Demons still getting stuck.

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So, I considered getting Brute to help kill the Angel of Death, but opted to go for Ironman after all the Angel Arm usage. Luckily, I learned reading the wiki that Brute wouldn't help with accuracy anyway when using Throw. I also learned that its accuracy was far less than 50% and I circled the level a pile of times trying to kill the Angel of Death with cheese. A lot of the hits I ended up getting were standard melee hits. Mjollnir sucks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I got a message saying "You don't have a Longinus Spear!", which I don't recall seeing before. Is this normal? Is this new? I'm guessing it might be for first time pickups of exotics and uniques?

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With no way to clear the Vaults without Invulnerability, I opted to go for 100% kills and skip conqueror.

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With low maximum HP, I was definitely not checking what spawned over here.

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Bad mistake having a barrel blow up on me and get dumped into a pool of lava, but I was able to survive. I had range issues with Nano-Shrapnel Double Shotgun and remembered why I never make the assembly in that base.

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Archviles dying to fluids is a huge nerf, but I think a very good balance change. I made good use of it here.

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The rest of the game wasn't particularly interesting. I cleared out the last few floors, then blew up the Spider Mastermind using another Angel Arm. Got a good pile of badges and medals for this game.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)


I've started and stopped a few Archangel of 666 games, usually after finishing testing a build and then getting bored, but this time I decided to finish up the game. With the new version being worked on, I figured this would be a good last hurrah for version which I've been playing off and on for about 10 years.

With Sharpshooter, damage is incredibly consistent and good for planning, and has the best ammo efficiency of almost any build. Full clearing 666 still mostly devolves to getting Biggest Fucking Gun and cleaning up after, of which Sharpshooter is decent at, but there are definitely better builds for it. One of the nice things with Pistols and Son of a Gun x5 though is with a firing speed of 0.1s, it gives the fastest action speed while still being able to recharge the BFG, keeping enemies in place as much as possible.

As I wasn't anticipating finding a pile of Nano Packs, the last three traits of Eagle Eye x2 and Reloader went to waste and would have better as Finesse x2 and Juggler. The former three were for Grammaton Cleric Beretta, which didn't see too much use overall really.

Compared to my other 666 full clears, this time I didn't have Tough as Nails x3 or Badass x2, and I found myself needing to be less aggressive and healing more since I only had half health and took more damage. I also overlooked that this would damage my armor more, which was an issue at a few points. Still, this was HNTR so it wasn't a huge deal. I also ended up using Cerberus equipment for the most part as Inquisitor Set and Phaseshift Set weren't sturdy enough without the extra defensive traits.

Sharpshooter is a very good trait, even with a tough start, but it's not particular great at full clearing long games like this.

Overall, this was a pretty fun game and I've now done a 666 full clear with each class.


Some highlights:

On the very first floor due to a lucky vault, I was able to get Red Armor (P). This is a really nice help for a build that starts off weak:

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Early Gothic Armor was a nice find:

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Getting Whizkid a bit later than I normally would, my inventory was getting stacked with mod packs:

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Early Malek's Armor was also nice:

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I already had my end-game armor by floor 27, which actually was a lot later than it could have been if I invested in Whizkid early:

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Hot start:

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Split islands:

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Very goofy vault:

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Another hot start:

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While Storm Bolter Pistol was my primary weapon for awhile, Energy Pistol was really nice for an additional ammo type, and being able to punch holes into walls:

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Nano Pack on floor 95:

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Hot start, or maybe a cold one I guess:

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Grammaton Cleric Beretta on floor 99, which was mostly a boss killer early on:

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Another hot start:

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Silly Archvile line:

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On a floor I was preparing to nuke, something at the edge of my vision caught my eye:

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It was a bit of a puzzle to grab, but I did get it:

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Horrendous inventory as I was waiting to find a Combat Pistol to make my end-game weapon:

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Interesting floor:

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Trigun exactly 100 floors after GCB, which was a nice power upgrade:

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More Nano Packs. With this, I went for Biggest Fucking Gun (N):

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Finally on floor 256, I found a Combat Pistol:

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Going for a strike:

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Another Nano Pack. I used this one for Antigrav Phaseshift Boots:

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And another:

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I decided to go for a nice explosion here:

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The explosion gave a hefty wall of text in my messages:

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Another split island, this one with a vault:

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Found Dragonslayer, but not using it for this game:

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Found it a second time too:

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Finally found Inquisitor Boots, but didn't end up using them much anyway:

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Double nuke room near the end of my game:

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Saw another Nano Pack on the second last floor. I likely blew up some throughout the game, but this one survived:

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Final stats screen:

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Here's the mortem

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Discussion / Nano Pack Mechanics
« on: September 01, 2023, 18:00 »
Nano Packs are one of the most powerful items in the game, and are always highly sought after. They are a part of some of the strongest assemblies in the game, and can functionally give you infinite ammo for most weapons. Despite this, seemingly no player fully understands how they work as I've talked with players from top skill all the way down. There are a few reasons for this though as Nano Packs work somewhat unintuitively where you would only understand it if you've delved into the code. They also tend to be used for assemblies and not really focused on what they individually do. Finally, they are also rare enough that most players never find more than one in a game unless they're playing Angel of 100 or Archangel of 666. Because of this, I decided to explain the mechanics and details of them and how to best take advantage of its power.

Recharge Amount and Recharge Delay

First, items that recharge have two different properties which are the recharge amount and the recharge delay. Recharge amount is how much an item recharges on an action. For example, Blaster's recharge amount is 1, while Nuclear Plasma Rifle's recharge amount is 4. Recharge delay is how many actions have to pass before the recharging begins. For weapons, you have to not be firing, and for armors, you have to not be taking damage. For example, Malek's Armor has a recharge delay of 10, meaning 10 actions of not taking damage have to pass before it begins recharging durability. Nuclear BFG has a recharge delay of 0, so even after immediately firing, it already begins recharging.

Below are the following values for recharge amount and recharge delay:

Blaster - 1, 3
Nuclear Plasma Rifle - 4, 4
Nuclear BFG - 1, 0

Malek's Armor - 5, 10
Necroarmor - 2, 0
Nyarlaptotep's Boots - 5, 10

Tactical Armor - 2, 10
Tactical Boots - 2, 10
Power Armor - 5, 10
Nanofiber Skin Armor - 1, 5

One small detail is that the action must take at least 0.1s. If you have achieved a speed faster than that, whether it's moving, firing, or any other action, you will get a non-recharge action and get no recharge. There are only a few cases where this is relevant.

Nano Pack Mechanics

When it comes to applying a Nano Pack to an item, there are a few different checks it goes through before deciding what it does. First, the item is checked if it can already recharge. If it can, it will either reduce the recharge delay by 5, or if the recharge delay is already 0, it will add 1 to the recharge amount instead. If the item doesn't recharge, the Nano Pack will turn the item into one that recharges with a recharge delay of 5 and a recharge amount of 1 for weapons and 2 for armor.

For some examples, if a Nano Pack is applied to a plain Shotgun, it will become Shotgun (N) which has a recharge amount of 1 and a recharge delay of 5. If a Nano Pack is applied to a Blaster, it will reduce the recharge delay by 5, bringing it to 0, so your Blaster (N) will still have a recharge amount of 1, but have a recharge delay of 0 instead of 3. If a Nano Pack is applied to a Nuclear BFG, the recharge delay is already 0, so it instead will increase the recharge amount by 1, so Nuclear BFG (N) will have a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0.

The big appeal of these mechanics, and also very expensive, is when you begin using double or even triple Nano Packs on items. If you take a Shotgun (N), which has a recharge amount of 1 and a recharge delay of 5, and apply a second Nano Pack to it, Shotgun (NN) will have a recharge amount of 1, and a recharge delay of 0. As long as you don't encounter non-recharge actions, you can endlessly fire similar to Nano-Shrapnel and Nanomanufacture assemblies, but you have room for 3 extra mods instead of just 1 after completing the assembly.

Double Nano Packs and Triple Nano Packs

Let's look into various hypothetical items that can be created as a non-assembly with multiple Nano Packs.

Combat Pistol (PPPBB) is generally the cheap option for an extremely strong Pistol, but some players opt to go with Nanomanufacture Combat Pistol (P) for infinite firing and a little less power. However, you can instead go with Combat Pistol (PPPNN) which gives both the higher power while also being infinitely firing too. Alternatively, you could also go with Combat Pistol (PNNSS) to be able to fire infinitely and cancel accuracy penalties of distance and darkness. With Son of a Gun x5 reducing firing speed to 0.1s exactly, the additional speed multipliers of being a Scout or being Berserk can cause you to get non-recharge actions, but the natural clip of 15 is also helpful if you're getting these.

Plasma Shotgun has unique properties with a shotgun blast dealing Plasma damage, but can be very ammo hungry and doesn't fit well with Nano-Shrapnel assembly. However, if you were to make Plasma Shotgun (NNNPP) or (NNNTT), it would be recharging 2 ammo after each shot taking 3, giving you a full 30 shots of continuous firing even in the worst case scenario. This weapon is incredibly powerful at destroying corpses, walls, and has the best shotgun blast type, having the best range, depth, and lowest damage reduction. Multiple Nano Packs can turn it into a solo weapon instead of just a support.

Nano-Shrapnel Super Shotgun (P) is often viewed as one of the god weapons of the game, giving 6d4x2 Piercing damage that can be endlessly fired. However, Super Shotgun (NNNPP) also provides infinite firing with recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0, and while being Shrapnel damage instead of Piercing, it boasts a massive 10d4x2, which is significantly more powerful that Nano-Shrapnel Super Shotgun and other variants. You could also opt to go with (NNNTT) for even faster firing and still higher damage with 8d4x2.

Rocket Launcher (NNFFF) allows for 2 extra Firestorm Packs over Nanomanfacture Rocket Launcher (F), giving a much larger blast radius. With the non-assembly, multi Nano Pack build, the blast radius reaches a massive 10, able to blow up a giant portion of each floor, while also being able to be fired infinitely.

Nuclear BFG (NNNFF) gives a recharge amount of 4 and a recharge delay of 0, meaning you can fire a giant BFG ball every 10 actions and melt everything. It's not as massive as the radius from Biggest Fucking Gun, but you can fire the non-assembly variant pretty repetitively. You can also go with a regular BFG (NNNBB) to have a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0, but holding a clip of 169 cells, letting you fire 4 consecutive shots and then being able to recharge for more later.

Laser Rifle normally fires far too many shots, but with the Marine's Ammochain firing only 1 shot per burst, Laser Rifle (NNFFF) becomes infinitely firing like Nanomanufacture Laser Rifle (F), but shoots out 4 extra shots per burst, giving a giant increase in damage. With Triggerhappy x2 and Son of a Bitch x5, you'll get 13 shots per burst, which you can endlessly shoot, each doing 1d7 + 5, giving a maximum damage of 156 and average damage of 117 every time you press to shoot.

As you can see, many of these weapons are ridiculously powerful, but of course come at extremely high costs that likely are only obtainable during Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666 games.

Medical Armor

Because Onyx Pack exists for armors, Nano Packs are inferior as you can have infinite durability instead of recharging durability. However, there is one exception to this with Medical Armor, as the healing effect from it comes from durability. Onyx Packs don't technically make armors have infinite durability, but instead hide it and skip the check when taking damage. However, Medical Armor healing doesn't do this, so you can still have your Medical Armor (O) drop down to 1%.

A single Nano Pack will result in Medical Armor (N) with a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 5, meaning that you can let the armor recharge after healing you, but you have to finish taking damage first before it kicks in. There is a way around this however, with Nanofiber Skin Armor assembly made with Medical Armor, essentially giving you a Medical Armor already having a recharge amount of 1 and recharge delay of 5, and then finishing the item with a Nano Pack, giving a recharge amount of 1 and recharge delay of 0. What this means is that as soon as you take damage, Medical Armor will heal you like normal, but also immediately restore 1 durability. If you were to continuously be taking 1 damage, you can then immediately heal 1 damage, and the armor will self-repair for the same amount. This means you can find a nice pool of acid to stand in and hypothetically take infinite damage, possibly leading to adverse effects as the variable for tracking damage taken might either cap off, or possibly roll over back to 0. This could be an alternative way to earn Iron Skull instead of using Vampyre as well.


Hopefully with this information, more players will understand better how Nano Packs work and consider making some of the hypothetical weapons possible if they're fortunate to find multiples. I've requested that the Medical Armor exploit be fixed in a future version, with an easy fix of Nanofiber Skin Armor having a recharge delay of 6, preventing the value from reaching 0.


This was a great run with no major time losses, and lots of great luck! There were many Berserk Packs, some Invulnerability, many floors with nearby stairs, and not too much issue with going through each floor. The other big time save was finding a nuke for a fast ending against the Spider Mastermind. Very satisfied with this time! I'm sure the spare 20 seconds would make Nightmare feasible...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Post Mortem / [M|AoOC|3%|YAFW] Full Win in 1:24 (with video)
« on: August 23, 2023, 19:38 »

While attempting a sub minute speedrun, I ended up getting a slightly slower full win here, beating JC and surviving in 1:24. I actually had a run prior to this that was 1:33 that had an immediate Trigun within vision at the start which also got me a full win.

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Post Mortem / [M|AoOC|3%|YAVP] Win in 0:57 (with video)
« on: August 23, 2023, 19:35 »

Decided to do some speedrunning tonight and wanted to try to win a game under a minute and eventually got this run. It essentially devolves into close stairs, fast movement, and a lucky nuke somewhere.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With Kornel's blessing, I'll be compiling all of the feature requests from the community into this thread to help centralize all the suggestions people have brought up. Although I'll be organizing everything and offering quite a number of ideas myself, by all means I don't expect to have all of mine make it into the official future release or dominate over other ideas. I highly encourage everyone to bring discussion to everyone else's ideas, and to be very open with your own. Be creative and even a little outlandish with requests, just be sure to justify them with good reasoning and support. Nobody can get everything they want, and we have to all collectively compromise. At the end of the day, it's also Kornel's call to decide and also the team to put in the work to actually make new changes.

I think it's also important to reflect on the process involved with new changes with future versions. There are functionally infinite ways the game can be changed, functionally creating infinite possible DoomRLs, so having a general sense of direction is good to have. Balance is important, and people will have varying ways on how balance should be created. Some may argue that having clearly identifiable tiers of viability makes for a better game as gimmicky self-handicaps can create interesting experiences. Others may try to equalize everything as best as possible. Another important concept to consider is that people are psychologically loss averse and feel worse from losing something than they do feeling good about gaining something of equal magnitude. It can often be a more exciting and interesting game when new features are created, rather than taking away ones that are too powerful. Despite that though, DoomRL is the player vs the game, and especially with the roguelike genre, there must be a level of challenge and difficulty, which does require some inherent loss of power or gain of opposition to maintain how hard DoomRL is.

Below are three broad categories for ideas: 1) bugs/exploits/fixes where something is broken with the game and needs to be fixed, whether a major glitch or even just a small typo, 2) changes, where something already existed should be modified to make the game better, and 3) new features, which are entirely new and not currently existing in the game. With each individual idea will be a brief explanation of what the idea is and links to the rationale behind the idea and any additional discussion from other posts once discussion picks up a bit. I'll also look into digging through old ideas in this sub-forum to add to this topic over time, as it has been many years since players have brought up new ideas. Depending on the progression of this thread and how the development team goes about it, I'll later start including the expected status of any ideas if they become planned for the release, rejected for the release, or in a pending status for further discussion.

I also do this purely as a passionate player and am not involved with the actual decisions of future requests, nor are my ideas above the ideas that anyone else has to offer. I'm simply helping with organizing everything into one place.

Colour-coding is used to help group a few sections. Badges are coloured coded for each tier, and any suggestions related to weapons, equipment, and assemblies are in lime green.


[X] Bug: Deimos Lab is considered conquered by only pressing the two levers to open up the middle. 1

[X] Bug: Containment Area is considered conquered by killing all enemies, and the trap can be skipped. 1

[X] Bug: Killing the Apostle (at least on Archangel of 666) gives an error message. 1

[?] Bug: On a flood level on an island map, it's possible to start in the middle of lava (this may have been fixed in a previous version and I have never experienced this). 1

[X] Bug: Attacking an item crate with a melee weapon on Angel and Archangel of Pacifism gives an error message. 1

[X] Bug: Tristar Blaster accepts Firestorm Pack, but it does nothing. 1

[X] Bug: Error messages occur when wielding Dragonslayer and Berserker Armor, and there are no tiles for Nightmare Demons to spawn on. 1

[X] Exploit: Nightmare Demons can be trivially farmed for essentially infinite kills when hiding and wielding Dragonslayer and Berserker Armor. A suggest fix is having it spawn special Nightmare Demons which are immune to fluid damage. 1

[ ] Exploit: Medical Armor in Nanofiber Skin Armor (N) can allow the player to take 1 damage and immediately heal it. Since this can be done infinitely, it may cause an issue if the total damage value reaches the highest possible. A suggested fix is changing the recharge delay of Nanofiber Skin Armor to 6 so that it can never reach 0. 1

[ ] Exploit: The Spider Mastermind can get stuck when shot across the bottom or top middle pillars, making it only able to go up and down. The AI might need to be adjusted. 1

[ ] Exploit: Angel of 100 can be used to be considered a conqueror due to 0 generated bonus floors to earn some achievements. 1

[X] Fix: Grammar for the menu before selecting Archangel challenges says "in it's ultra hard form". 1

[ ] Fix: Archangel of 666 shows both in-game and in the high scores that it's Ao100. 1

[X] Fix: Lightfoot Platinum Badge doesn't say it requires Ultra-Violence difficulty in-game. 1

[ ] Fix: Charch's Null Pointer shows that its damage is 0d0, when it's actually 10d1. 1


[~] Nerf Intuition by marking items as a green X instead of showing what they are, and change monster sense radius from 3 to 2. 1 2

[X] Nerf Scout class bonuses and buff other class bonuses (needs discussion). Current suggestions are Stair Sense doesn't work for stairs to bonus levels, Marines have 10% all resistances inherently, and Technicians have more uniques they can mod. 1 2 3

[X] Allow assemblies before Whizkid x2 to still get an extra mod pack after later getting Whizkid x2. 1 2

[X] Buff Reloader to 25% speed, possibly 30% speed. 1 2 3 4 5

[X] Remove Gunrunner blocking Whizkid and change it to another trait such as Brute. 1 2

[X] Remove Army of the Dead blocking Finesse and change it to another trait such as Son of a Gun. 1 2

[X] Remove Bullet Dance blocking Eagle Eye and change it to Intuition. 1

[ ] Buff Entrenchment (needs discussion). Current suggestion is increasing resistances from 30% to 50%. 1

[ ] Make Phobos Lab more rewarding to enter compared to Military Base (needs discussion). 1 2 3

[ ] High scores mostly devolve into playing Archangel of 666 and aren't really used. Perhaps they should be changed (needs discussion). 1

[ ] Allow more variety in fluid generation, so there is more water and acid in deeper levels. 1 2

[ ] Add Angel of Death as a regular enemy in very deep levels. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

[ ] Allow Juggler to instantly swap across all weapons from inventory, instead of requiring mousewheel. Also allow it to work with swapping ammo boxes. 1 2 3 4 5 6

[ ] Replace Missile Launcher in City of Skulls/Abyssal Plains. 1

[X] Switch the depths of Unholy Cathedral and The Vaults. 1 2

[X] Change The Vaults enemies. 1 2

[ ] Prevent softlocking when teleporting into the mountain of Mt. Erebus. 1 2 3 4

[X] Buff Nightmare Imps. 1 2

[X] Change Nightmare Archvile's attack to 20d1 Plasma. 1 2

[X] Buff Lava Elemental. 1 2 3

[X] Increase depth Former Commandos and Pain Elementals can spawn. 1 2

[ ] Allow hunting enemies to pick up items and armors (Cyberdemon would need a healing cap for Med Packs). 1 2 3 4 5 6

[ ] Allow Hell's Arena to have both different rewards and different enemies depending on challenge. Dual challenges would use the harder set. 1 2 3

[ ] Replace lever with a horizontal coordinate trap in City of Skulls. 1 2

[ ] Have The Wall/Containment Area open up after all enemies are dead to prevent softlocks if you use a Phase Device. 1 2

[X] Increase the danger level in Deimos and Hell (needs discussion). 1 2 3

[X] Decrease the audio volume when a rapid-fire attack hits an enemy multiple times. 1 2

[ ] Buff the Apostle to 500 HP and always teleporting after being hit (also kill all enemies when it dies like JC). 1 2 3 4

[ ] Change ammo rooms so they don't only drop Cells late into the game. A suggested change is: 1% 1d2 Cell Boxes, 2% 1d2 Rocket Boxes, 3% 1d2 Shell Boxes, 4% 1d2 Bullet Boxes, 20% 1d3 + 2 Cells, 20% 1d3 + 2 Rockets, 25% 1d3 + 2 Shells, and 25% 1d3 + 2 Bullets. 1 2 3 4 5 6

[X] Change the difficulty suggestion of Archangel of Humanity from "TwoDev" to "Tormuse". 1

[X] Change Nightmare Demons from giving 95 Experience to 263 Experience. 1

[X] Change Elite Former Humans, Elite Former Sergeants, and Elite Former Captains Experience values to 128, 263, 320 respectively. Also increase their weight generation values. 1 2

[ ] Buff all Elite Former enemies to deal 2d5 melee damage (equivalent to a Combat Knife). 1 2

[ ] Change the colour of Sniper Mod Packs so they are distinguishable from Firestorm Mod Packs. Suggested colour is a dark green, but any is fine. 1 2

[ ] Buff Survivalist to only require Ironman x2, and to give double healing from Small Med Packs and Small Health Globes. 1 2

[ ] Buff Scavenger to work with melee weapons, armors, and boots. Possibly also change and add some guaranteed drops. 1 2

[ ] For the dodging bonus value on the stats screen, have it include the bonus value when running. 1

[X] For levers that destroy walls, only make a singular explosion sound instead of one for each wall tile. 1

[ ] If Containment Area is destroyed by a nuke, disable the trap, but still count the level as conquered. 1

[ ] If Abyssal Plains is destroyed by a nuke, disable the wall trap from appearing. 1

[ ] Change bridges that go over rivers to not be blocked off by walls or rooms without doors (this might be too difficult to implement). 1 2

[X] For postmortem messages for darkness levels, remove the comma after the level number so that it formats correctly when pasted on the forums with mortem tags. 1

[~] Buff Frag Shotgun by reducing ammo consumed from 4 to 2, and possibly reduce clip size from 16 to 10 or 8 to compensate. Also consider changing damage to 6d3 and change firing speed to 0.5s. 1 2 3

[ ] Buff Mjollnir damage to 1d25, and consider making its depth level 1 and have a higher generation weight, similar to Butcher's Cleaver. 1 2 3

[ ] Have Throw from Combat Knife and Mjollnir be improved by Brute's accuracy and Finesse's speed. Also confirm that Son of a Bitch and Brute's damage also affect them. 1 2 3

[X] Buff Mega Buster from 5 ammo per shot to 3 ammo per shot, to also match the bursts themselves. 1

[ ] Let Mega Buster use alt fire to switch modes, but you have to collect all the damage types (more similar to Mega Man). 1 2

[ ] Allow Subtle Knife to count as "knife kills". Remove the HP reduction of Invoke and increase attack speed to 0.8s. 1 2 3

[ ] Nerf Trigun to not be an instant nuke and require 10s like regular nukes. 1

[~] Buff Medical Powerarmor from 4 protection to 6 protection, allow healing up to 50%, and increase its weight generation to 3. 1 2 3 4 5

[X] Make Backpack indestructible. 1 2 3

[X] Increase Chainsaw's generation weight. 1 2 3

[X] Buff Micro Launcher by giving it 0.5s firing speed. 1 2

[ ] Buff Double Chainsaw. 1 2 3

[X] Buff Medical Armor to heal up to 50% and switch the resistances to 15% for each of Plasma, Acid, and Fire. 1 2

[ ] Change Duelist Armor to only having 60% Melee resistance. 1 2 3 4 5 6

[X] Buff Tower Shield to having 200% durability and -30% movement speed. 1 2 3

[X] Buff Ballistic Armor to 40% Melee/Bullet/Shrapnel resistances and -20% Fire resistance. 1 2 3 4 5

[X] Change Cybernetic Armor's resistances to 20% all. 1 2 3

[X] Buff Necroarmor to regenerate at 5% durability per action. 1 2

[X] Change Gothic Set from +4 Protection to 50% all resistance. 1 2

[ ] Make Dragonslayer's Berserk effect "more permanent". 1 2

[ ] Change Schematics so that each run is truly independent (probably just have it drop elsewhere separately). 1 2 3 4

[ ] Change Technical Packs to increase resistances when used in armors instead of knockback. 1 2 3 4

[X] Buff/change BFG9000 Overcharge (needs discussion). 1 2 3

[X] Increase the amount of Rockets in a Rocket Box from 20 to 25. 1 2

[ ] Buff Bullet-Proof Vest from 80% Bullet resistances to 95% and increase generation weight from 4 to 6. 1 2

[X] Change Environmental Boots assembly from BPT to BBT, and buff the resistances to 95%. 1 2 3 4

[X] Buff Combat Translocator from 10 Cells per shot to 5. 1

[~] Let Technicians apply a single mod or basic assembly to Frag Shotgun, Jackhammer, Anti-Freak Jackal, Grammaton Cleric Beretta, Necroarmor, Shielded Armor, and Medical Powerarmor. Let Revenant's Launcher be fully moddable. 1 2 3 4

[X] Buff Speedloader Pistol assembly from 0.6s to 0.4s. 1 2 3

[ ] Buff Power Armor assembly by tripling Plasma Resistance and quintupling Bullet/Shrapnel Resistance (and still doubling Fire Resistance). Also buff it by giving +20% movement speed instead of a set value. 1 2 3 4 5 6

[X] Buff Assault Rifle to have original+3 Accuracy instead of just +2. 1

[X] Nerf Inquisitor Set pieces to each have +20% movement speed and weight generations of 2. 1 2

New Features

[ ] Add a toggle for turning off powerup overlays of Berserk, Invulnerability, and Envirosuit. 1 2

[~] Allow all difficulties and challenges available from a new file. 1 2

[ ] Cycle between Phobos, Deimos, and Hell tilesets for Angel of 100 / Archangel of 666. 1 2

[ ] Add more music slots in the musichq.lua file. 1

[ ] Create locked vaults. 1 2

[ ] Add a lever effect that drops ammo. 1 2 3

[ ] Add Phobos trees to level generation (but avoid blocking off areas; might require being preset or being fragile). 1 2 3 4

[ ] Have a text colour change before running mode wears out, similar to powerup effects. 1 2

[ ] Have the trait selection screen be more color-coded (example by Mader Levap): 1 2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ ] Create Archangel of Darkness which would have an even smaller vision (4?), but 2.5x experience. 1 2 3 4 5

[ ] Add level feeling messages for Agony Elemental caves and Lava Elemental caves. ("You hear echoing wails of agony!" / "You feel like you stepped into a volcano!" or something) 1 2

[ ] Add trap rooms. These would have a power-up/exotic item inside and when obtained, has a 50% chance of spawning enemies similar to a summon enemies lever, or flooding the room with acid or lava. The weight of the power-ups/exotics would not impact the rest of the floor. The chance of the trap activating could also instead be affected by depth level and/or difficulty. 1 2 3 4 5

[X] Remove the out of range limit for firing that was added into the newest version. 1

[ ] Reveal enemies when there are three or less remaining. 1 2 3 4 5 6

[ ] Have the stats screen show number of enemies remaining. 1 2

[ ] Add sounds for all actions for exotics/uniques/artifacts. 1 2

[ ] Add sounds for Nightmare enemies, Lava Elemental, Agony Elemental, Arena Master, and Apostle. 1 2

[ ] Add sounds for enemies spawning, enemies reviving, and Archviles charging. 1 2

[ ] Allow a third Sniper Pack to give weapons the auto-hit property. 1

[ ] New assembly suggestion: Scouting Armor (AS) which is original, +1 Vision, +10% speed. 1

[ ] New assembly suggestion: Blastproof Armor (TF) which is original, with half damage to explosions, +30% knockback. 1

[ ] New assembly suggestion: Grappling Armor (BA) which is original, +30% Melee Resistance, -50% knockback. 1 2 3 4

[ ] New assembly suggestion: Sniper Rifle (BAS) (Chaingun only) which is original with auto-hit property. 1 2

[ ] New exotic suggestion: Acid-Proof Armor which is 3 Protection, 95% Acid Resistance, -10% movement speed, everything else normal. 1 2

[ ] New exotic suggestion: Glass Shield which is 0 Protection, 50% Durability, 80% all resistances, cannot be repaired, cannot be modded, doesn't degrade. 1 2 3 4

[ ] New exotic suggestion: Glass Armor which is 0 Protection, 50% Durability, 50% all resistances. 1 2

[ ] Add method for guaranteed Berserker Armor and Dragonslayer in Angel of 100 / Archangel of 666. 1 2 3 4

[ ] Add a new common Pistol type (suggested example is "Magnum" with more power and less accuracy). 1 2

[ ] Create Tactical Set (Tactical Armor + Tactical Boots) which gives Dodgemaster. 1 2

[X] Keep the new assembly, "Mother-In-Law", but change it to PPFN. 1 2 3

Let's go!!! This challenge has eluded me forever and quite honestly has been pretty embarrassing that I genuinely have found even Everyman Angelic Badge easier. I figured I must be doing something wrong, and maybe too much focus on combat instead of purely stair-diving. A few weeks ago, I got my closest ever reaching around floor 86 before running out of ammo and dying, all after a grueling 6 hour game. I've also bounced back and forth between pure Ao100 and combining it with Angel of Max Carnage with no real success.

Earlier today, I attempted this some more with Ao100 + AoMC and died on floor 8 after nearly 40 minutes. After reading some various mortems of players who completed this significantly faster, that had to suggest that early combat for experience is the wrong approach, and more focus on pushing and gaining larger amounts all at once is better.

It has annoyed me for literal years I couldn't get this because completing this challenge would give me my last Medal, and alongside with that 2 Diamond Badges.

So I decided to try some more with an aggressive approach, and not only was that the key to success, but the game handed me the game with a massive lucky break.

On floor 16, the very first floor that Dragonslayer can spawn on, I was presented with this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My initial plan was a masterless Shotgun build, and I had only got up to Intuition x2, Hellrunner x2, and Dodgemaster, so I was able to smoothly pivot to a melee build. I knew that Dragonslayer would make the game much easier, although I wasn't quite sure what to expect if it would still be a challenge or if it became a total cakewalk. I knew though that I had to be absolutely certain to capitalize on this because I could quite literally never get this again in my life.

After some brief dancing, I picked it up and was ready to go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And indeed, I still had to be careful. I played a little dodgy and avoidant because I didn't have a ton of melee accuracy yet, and it did get scary:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I started finding a bunch of Homing Phase Devices, as well as nukes, which I essentially viewed as get out of jail free cards:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With how quickly I was able to blitz through floors, the chances of finding and staying Invulnerable were quite high too. On this fairly early floor, I found a nice double:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This was another nice Invulnerability spawn. I had to find the right balance between stair-diving and farming experience with them, and generally I would only detour if some good enemies for it were nearby:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Part way into my game, my inventory looked like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And quite a bit later looked like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also got really lucky to find Hell Staff very close to the start of a floor:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this floor had a lovely triple Invulnerability. I only was able to grab two of them, but it was still a great boost:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And that's pretty much it for the highlights! I spent a good portion of this game Invulnerable, which made it a lot easier, but I still was a bit nervous playing. As a hardened player who has competed in various games for close to 20 years, gone to tournaments in-person and online, and have a pretty nice resume of achievements if I can gloat a little bit, it's very rare for me to get nerves and this was a big one that I felt for the first time in years. This was possibly my luckiest game on DoomRL to date, and I have had some very lucky games in the past. I had to be 100% certain I did not mess this up.

With this, I finally finished this challenge I've been trying off and on for years, got all 43 Medals, and am now at 21 Diamond Badges! I believe Papilio is the only player who has more now. I'm also feeling super motivated to get the my remaining Platinum Badges now, and try some more badge hunting for the ones I'm missing.

The other cool thing is that I was able to complete this challenge in under an hour, but Sereg still has the record by a significant gap!

Here's the mortem:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Let's go!

Discussion / Icy's Guide to Classes, Traits, and Builds
« on: July 29, 2023, 15:18 »
Introduction and General Concepts


Traits and character development are very rich and important for success in DoomRL, and in this guide I'll be thoroughly covering all the traits, how to viably use them, and offering my perspectives on them. Because this game has many various game modes, lengths of games, playstyles, randomness, unique situations, and so much more depth, objective decision-making can't be provided for every case. Likewise, I can only offer guidance from my own view, and naturally, that will somewhat involve my own playstyle, biases, experiences, and so on. Nonetheless, I hope all players can find this guide helpful.

There are 15 master traits in the game, and also the option to not pick any of them and go masterless, creating up to 18 different builds. This is the primary way I'll be breaking down character development and analyzing each trait.

As with all games, there is both offense and defense, and both play important roles in DoomRL. As you'll be fighting against huge hordes of enemies on every floor, sustaining as little damage as possible is what keeps you alive, which will involve lures, cornershooting, careful positioning, running away when necessary, and more. Offense is also a good defense in that if you can simply kill enemies quickly, they won't have a chance to attack back.

Of course though, you cannot avoid all mistakes and will get chipped at. Being able to have yourself a safety net for bad luck and bad decision making is also important for staying alive. To put in a simple lens, success in DoomRL is about keeping your health as high and as consistently high as possible. All strategies should revolve around this concept, whether directly or indirectly.

All traits functionally do this, whether directly such as Son of a Bitch or Tough as Nails by increasing damage dealt and decreasing damage sustained, or indirectly such as Whizkid allowing access to improvements in these two factors, or Ammochain with providing you with significantly more ammo and more inventory space.

Side challenges will also affect this, such as if you are playing Angel of Red Alert with intention to full clear the game, Hellrunner indirectly improves your survivability by allowing you more time to clear each floor by increasing movement speed and increasing your resource of time before the floor explodes. This allows you to make safer, less aggressive decisions if needed, increases the number of paths you can take to explore the floor, and so on.

This all is very obvious, but it's important to consciously recognize the fundamentals of what each trait is doing in order for you to accurately select them to best improve your chances of success.

Inventory Management

Alongside your traits is your inventory, and generally a large portion of it will be ammo so that you can be dealing damage. If you have a weapon that has infinite firing or you're using melee attacks only, then there is no need for holding ammo for most cases, and this allows you to carry far more useful items including Large Med Packs, Phase Devices, extra armors, and whatever else you may need. A bigger inventory is always an improvement.

Opposite this, if you have several points invested in Tough as Nails, Ironman, and Badass, you likely won't need to be carrying as many Large Med-Packs and can instead be bringing along a wider range of weapons, plenty of ammo, and other useful items.

So what is the correct balance? In my opinion, infinite equipment is possible through Nanomanufacture Ammo, Onyx Packs in armors, using melee, and other manners, but infinite health and defense is not. Even with maxed out builds, you can still be killed and so always having some amount of Large Med Packs is important. Alongside this, dealing massive damage also reduces your need for ammo.

That said, many games do reach a point where the rate of difficulty doesn't catch up to the strength of your build and you effectively know you have won the game long before it is actually over. In situations like this, I still generally recommend having an Envirosuit or two for deadly air floors, some nukes for quickly clearing floors and getting you to the end sooner (in particular, Nuclear Plasma Rifle and Nuclear BFG so that you can still quick nuke on floors that already started with a nuke), and some Phase Devices and Hell Staff if you are stair-diving or otherwise need to avoid the rare case where you actually are at risk of dying.

Not all games will go long enough for this to become relevant, but for those that do, I think it's very important to always gain access to at least one weapon that has infinite ammo so that you always have more flexibility with your inventory. Semi-infinite weapons such as Blaster, Nuclear Plasma Rifle, or anything with just a basic Nano Pack are also good, but the delay can poise a problem for floors that require excessive use of them, so strive to go with truly infinite weapons and armors where possible. Infinity for the sake of itself however will not always be worth it, such as trying to use a Combat Knife on a character without Brute, or using the pretty weak Nanofiber armor.

For shorter and medium length games where you can't reasonably expect to acquire these equipment, you will ultimately have to balance your inventory correctly, which is a difficult task to optimize. Generally speaking, the better you become as a player in your decision-making, the less support items you will require and can fill more of it with extra ammo, weapons, and others.
The traits and build you select will have large impacts on these decisions, and they'll be covered in the main section of the guide as well.

Masterful vs Masterless

Every class has five master traits that, generally speaking, will offer unique and strong improvements to your character and increasing your chances of success. They tend to be the focus of trait selection because of their powers, but also because they cannot be selected until all the pre-requisites have been selected, and that you don't use any of the traits that they block. Many master traits tend to narrow you into very specific ways of playing, but if those manners of playing are significantly better than other ways, then the trade-off is worth it.

Alternatively, playing masterless and not selecting any of them does not allow you to unlock them, but you have full flexibility of picking anything out of the basic and advanced traits. Playing masterless allows you to select specifically the traits you need as the randomness of the game gives you all kinds of different situations. For example, if you find Butcher's Cleaver, or a Nuclear Plasma Rifle, you might opt to pick Brute or Eagle Eye at your next level-up when you had no plans to do so prior.

Masterless builds are also significantly better for short games, such as for stair-diving or Angel of Overconfidence. You may not even achieve enough experience to select a master trait during the length of the game, so you can freely pick exactly what you need to succeed. Master traits don't always have pre-requisities that you intend on using or caring for, which leads you to either playing a weaker character in the beginning, or otherwise delaying when you actually select the master trait, likely weakening your character in the middle of the game as you are still restricted by blocked traits and playing in a narrow way without the benefits of the master trait.

Ultimately, the power of master traits are what dictate if they are worth focusing on them or to otherwise go masterless. Some master traits are very powerful and are certainly worth their costs, while others are not really all that great and can lead to your build being worse. You could still pick them if you want to play for fun with unique gimmicks and playstyles, but this guide is focused on viability.

Different Game Modes

Between five difficulties, Angel challenges, Dual-Angel challenges, achievements that involve unique and interesting challenges, and widely varying lengths of play, different builds will succeed more in different game modes. It's unreasonable to cover every single possibility, so I have to generalize, and this does lead to niche builds and trait selection being useful for certain ways of playing while they are otherwise terrible.

Some of these cases include, Scavenger being better on Archangel of 666, Sharpshooter being redundant on Angel of Max Carnage, Juggler being better on Nightmare difficulty where you can farm Former Sergeants for a stack of Shotguns to avoid reloading, Angel of Purity negatively impacting all Marine characters, Scouts with stair sense being better for stair-diving, Ammochain being better when don't intend to get infinite ammo weapons, Army of the Dead being pointless when you expect to make Nano-Shrapnel, Gunrunner being significantly better during Angel of Red Alert games, and so on.

Late Game Equipment and Traits

Generally speaking, shorter games won't have as fleshed out depth of possibilities with character development and you don't need to consider what you would do if you had all 25 trait points spent. However, for longer games such as full clear conquering standard games, or Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666 games, you will more likely encounter more of everything within the game and so you need to account for far more, if not everything, in order to fully optimize your play.

For example, Reloader trait can be helpful in speeding up your attacking, especially with Shotguns, but if you are expecting to get an infinitely firing weapon far into your game, then Reloader becomes a wasted trait. Many weapons also tend to get out-classed, such as Chaingun and Minigun being worse versions of Laser Rifle, giving less reason to use Eagle Eye. And for particularly long games, Biggest Fucking Gun, especially when in a regular BFG and finishing with a Nano Pack, tends to completely destroy every floor such that most of your other weapons are not really all that worth using or investing traits for. Son of a Bitch adding 1 damage doesn't matter much if you're doing 9d9 damage with Azrael's Scythe.

Planning this out requires where you're willing to struggle a bit more. Some traits will become pointless to have in the late game, making your build worse at that point, but if you are still strong enough that completing the game is trivial, then you suffered with a worse build in the early and middle stages for nothing. The timing of your trait selection is important.

The top weapons tend to include Biggest Fucking Gun for doing absolute destruction to everything but also including useful items and can't be fired infinitely, Dragonslayer for providing you with double melee damage on top of its insane power along with 50% faster speeds and 60% all resistance but having no range and requiring to play melee, Nanomanufacture Laser Rifle for quickly melting any single target enemy but struggling more with groups, and Nano-Shrapnel Super Shotgun with pierces all armor and can be endlessly fired into wide ranges to destroy everything while keeping items intact but being a fair bit weaker than the other top weapons.

The top armors and boots tend to include Cerberus Armor in one of a few bases for great all resistances and some protection, Ceberus Boots for fluid immunity and allowing far more positioning control, Plasma Shield to protect against the deadliest damage type, Cybernano Energy-Shielded Vest for best protection against all three of the late game damage types, Phaseshift set for the fastest movement speeds which is excellent for positional play and stair-diving, and Inquisitor set for fire damage immunity which is the most common at the end of the game while also providing good general protection and high movement speed.

If you are playing a long game where character development becomes much more important, be sure to consider what your build will look like towards the end of the game. If certain traits guide you towards equipment that leads to objectively worse play, then you should re-evaluate your plan.

Class Bonuses


+10 health (+2 on Angel of Humanity and Archangel of Humanity).
+20 actions for power-up effects (100 vs 80 on Nightmare, 60 vs 40 on other difficulties).
Badass does not require Tough as Nails.

Note that Ironman works the exact same way for all classes.

Marines start with 20% more health than Scouts and Technicians, and get a decent boost in power-up duration, which is particularly helpful for Berserk and Invulnerability. The extra health can also function as 20 (or 4) more with Badass x2 helping sustain the health instead of having it decay.

These are both helpful bonuses, but can be argued to be the weakest set among the other classes. The extra health is only helpful if it's making the difference between life and death, and there may be times where what killed a Scout or Technician would have been enough damage to mostly if not entirely kill off a Marine as well. It's more of a passive bonus to have, and with enough points in Ironman, the difference of 110 vs 100 isn't very significant, even as 220 vs 200 with boosted health. The benefit is stronger in the early and middle game before points in Ironman devalue the class bonus.

The power-up bonus is not a huge amount, but spending an extra 20 actions being Berserk or Invulnerable gives you more time to make use of buffs in dangerous situations. In particular, power-ups on the opposite side of the stairs are still usable for the next floor far more often than Scouts and Technicians who may have them run out. This helps a lot with preventing any hot starts being an issue. It also allows for more time if you are planning on using a nuke.

Badass being immediately available is not too bad as starting with it early will greatly increase the health you can keep, and the difference in survivability may outweigh the difference in power of going with Son of a Bitch or Finesse. Tough as Nails is a fairly strong basic trait though, so the lack of requiring it in itself is not that amazing.

These bonuses are certainly nice to have, but can be a bit lackluster relatively speaking.


+10% speed for moving, firing, reloading, waiting, all item usage, pickups, opening and closing doors, and most everything else.
All stairs are visible (does not work on Angel of Darkness, Angel of Red Alert, Archangel of Red Alert, Angel of Pacifism, or Archangel of Pacifism).
Intuition does not require Eagle Eye.

Both of these bonuses are very powerful and make the Scout inherently a strong character. With 10% extra speed in everything, which factors in with everything as a separate source except for Berserk, Scout are faster at doing everything from moving, to attacking, to even just sorting your items. Even the faster wait speed can be a little helpful with being able to act more precisely as what you're waiting for happens, allowing you to react 1 turn earlier. The increased speed improves every aspect and all simultaneously.

Stair sense is also incredibly powerful for any games where you're stair-diving. It can also be helpful in standard games if you want to check which of the pair of bonus levels was rolled to plan ahead, such as Military Base vs Phobos Lab, and adjusting your actions on the current floor beforehand. However, it's mostly irrelevant for games where you are full clearing, or playing a game mode where it gets disabled anyway.

Most games, especially on Nightmare or other forms of exceptionally challenging difficulties, will generally mean you want to stair-dive, and knowing exactly where the stairs are can save a tremendous amount of time spent on every floor, give you a much more structured plan on how to approach on every floor, and can allow you to avoid respawning enemies much easier if you had otherwise gone the wrong way in search for the stairs. This is one of the key reasons why most of the hardest achievements in the game are done with Scouts as it is exponentially more powerful than not having stair sense. On anything easier though, it loses a lot of its usefulness.

Early Intuition is also incredibly powerful as you can further improve upon your decision-making immediately, instead of requiring Eagle Eye first, making the beginning of games much easier. Not requiring Eagle Eye is also the best of the three class trait skips as Eagle Eye is not necessary for every build, while Tough as Nails for Marines and Finesse for Technicians are still highly desireable in many games.

In isolation of other class differences regarding master traits, the Scout's class bonuses are arguably the strongest by far.


Start with a Technical Pack (not provided on Angel of Berserk, Angel of Shotgunnery, Angel of Impatience, Angel of Confidence, Angel of Overconfidence, Angel of Masochism, Angel of Pacifism, Archangel of Travel, Archangel of Masochism, and  and Archangel of Pacifism).
Item usage takes 1 turn.
Computer Maps function like Tracking Maps.
BFG10K and Railgun can use a single Mod Pack or basic assembly, Cybernetic Armor is fully moddable.
Whizkid does not require Finesse.

Technicians get a lot of class bonuses, but mostly tend to be smaller. Starting with a Technical Pack can be a great way to speed up your initial weapon in isolation of Finesse. It's generally not as good to sit on for an early assembly since you won't find more Mod Packs for a few floors, and likely also not their corresponding weapon, but you could use it for a Speedloader Pistol if you roll an Agility Pack on Angel of Marksmanship. Overall, it's very small, but the early game tends to be the hardest for most characters, so the difference with it is amplified a bit.

Item usage taking 1 turn as opposed to 9 for Scouts and 10 for Marines (excluding Berserk) is incredibly helpful for when you need to use Med Packs so that you don't get immediately retaliated against by enemies. The same also applies for Phase Devices so that you have a chance to react when landing. To a smaller extent, it is also helpful when using Mod Packs and other items. It is an excellent safety net to have.

Computer Maps are far more common than Tracking Maps, and being able to more often know precisely where all monsters are and what they are is very helpful for planning out your strategies. The big downside however is that Run->Wait can't be used to instantly pass enough turns until a monster is in sight, so camping is less effective. I wouldn't consider Computer Maps common enough that this is a huge bonus, and they don't appear in bonus levels for standard games, but it's still an overall decent bonus.

Being able to mod BFG10K and Railgun is not great since BFG10K is the rarest unique (tied in spawn chance, highest in depth level), while Railgun is also fairly rare. They are generally both outclassed by other weapons, especially by the time you most likely would find them, and most Mod Packs may find better usage elsewhere, especially Nano Packs which would otherwise solve the ammo issues of both of these weapons. They're decent supplementary weapons for a few niche situations.

Being able to fully mod Cybernetic Armor is a bit better since it can be found in Hell's Armory and Deimos Lab consistently if you play well, but is unremovable and also doesn't self-repair unless modded into Nanofiber Skin Armor or Cybernano Armor. Cybernano Armor finished with a Power Pack can bring protection up to 13, while Nanofiber Skin Armor goes up to 9 with more resistances. In both cases, they tend to be outclassed by other late game armors that boost resistances to Plasma, Fire, and Acid. The benefit of it is consistency, but at the cost of stronger possibilities. I think it's a decent bonus for standard games where you are less likely to find all the best armors and can use Cybernetic Armor instead.

Having Whizkid immediately available isn't great since you generally won't make much of use it at the beginning of the game. Moreso, it's nice that it's available whenever you're ready for it. Not needing Finesse in itself isn't really helpful since it's one of the better basic traits that most characters would use anyway except for Pistol builds that use Son of a Gun.

Overall, Technicians have a wide range of little helpful bonuses, but the main one really is the instant item usage. The others you may not really notice as much and don't outweigh what a Scout could generally offer instead.

Post Mortem / [U|100%|YAAM] Elite Platinum Badge
« on: July 15, 2023, 20:27 »
I generally don't enjoy playing standard games compared to fun challenges, and I especially don't enjoy being forced to go through every bonus level, which is why I've procrastinated this badge for so long. After messing around with silly builds, I decided to play something more seriously and one-tried this badge. Of course though, this was due to some of the most insane luck I could have asked for. Since this is my first time earning this badge, I wanted to post the mortem.

I found Duelist Armor super early into the game, although I had rolled Phobos Lab:

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I figured I had enough movement speed to lure the Nightmare Demons safely:

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And indeed I did:

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After Phobos, I rolled Hell's Armory which was also really nice. Had I rolled Deimos Lab, I was planning to use the trick where you skip the Shamblers but still conquer the level:

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I found Plasma Shotgun inside, meaning I could swap out my rockets which was really nice:

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I unfortunately got hit by the Shambler just before the final hit, but the vault was still very lucky!

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I also had Cerberus Boots in Mod Pack form in my inventory, so I would start working towards Whizkid.

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And then the good luck went crazy with a Nano Pack on Deimos 2!

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My plan for this was going to be Nanomanufacture Plasma Rifle, which would significantly help with ammo management, having a great weapon, and attacking faster without needing to reload!

I also noticed that two of the needed Bulk Packs were also on this floor!

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Rolling The Wall was also nice:

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I actually almost botched my run, not realizing how much power was needed to bust through the wall with my Plasma Shotgun. I was very lucky I hadn't put in my Nano Pack into my Plasma Rifle yet:

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From here, the rest was easy:

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Of the level pair rolls, this was the one I dreaded the most:

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I'll be honest, I have never seriously played Abyssal Plains on Ultra-Violence difficulty, and I was not at all ready for how many Hell Knights there were. I almost died despite the power I had, but the Hell Staff put me in a nice position to defend:

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On Deimos 6, I found a Firestorm Pack! This would be awesome to finish up my main weapon:

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And on the same floor, I found the last Bulk Pack I needed!

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An absurd weapon to have at this point in the game:

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This was absolutely insane! I decided I'd use the extra Onyx Pack for my Duelist Armor when I need to be moving fast, and I'd hang onto the Nuke if I happened to find Invulnerability before a bonus level, particularly Limbo/The Mortuary.

On the next floor, I also found another Agility Pack to add more to my Duelist Armor. On the level-up, I was a bit split to go either Hellrunner 3 or Brute 1, but I was feeling confident Hellrunner 3 was the right choice.

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I also found a Bulk Pack for Chainsaw. I had planned to make Piercing Chainsaw, but all the crazy finds earlier side-tracked me for other uses. Fortunately, this is the best choice for single Mod Packs:

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Taking off Cerberus Boots, I was looking pretty fast and cheesed the Angel of Death:

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Thankfully, I rolled Limbo:

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Nearby was an Agility Pack to boost up the speed of my Red Armor, which could be important:

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I had a Berserk Pack nearby, and used an Envirosuit, giving my all the protection I needed while melting the Archviles back:

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Once I controlled the centre, I just had to slowly pick off the enemies around. From this point, it was my game to win:

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My inventory was looking nice too:

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I found an Invulnerability and decided to use my Nuke on the next floor:

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As it turns out, it was a pretty good floor to nuke too:

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And the rest of the game was more melting away all the enemies. I had the opportunity to go for a full win, but I opted not to.

Here's the mortem:

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Happy to have earned this badge! I'm now at 24/26 for Platinum Badges, only missing Strongman and Demonic because like Elite, I don't really enjoy playing standard games, but I'm feeling more obligated to get them done now.

Bullet Dance doesn't tend to get a lot of love, so I decided to YAAM a 666 game using it. Secret diamond in the rough? Correctly viewed as garbage? Maybe it's just mediocre?

Once fully decked out, Bullet Dance can yield some serious damage as it benefits from both Son of a Bitch and Son of a Gun, giving it a nice damage edge over Minigun. You can also fire in functionally the fastest speed possible, meaning that most enemies don't budge at all while you can take your time drilling them. Hot starts are never a concern because of their natural delay and the damage being outputted, you can clear everything before they can do anything back. Most enemies will die in one or two bursts, and even Cyberdemons only tend to take four.

Ammo is not too much of a concern since most of the shots tend to be ammo-efficient so long as you can make most of your hits. You can also use aimed shots to functionally "turn off" Bullet Dance, and also use single reload to keep one weapon empty. Grammaton Cleric Beretta, Anti-Freak Jackal, and Trigun are all decent options while working towards Nanomanufacture Combat Pistols, ideally finished with Sniper Packs.

And that's about the end of the good.

Bullet Dance is very viable end-game, but getting started is rough. Until you have several levels into Son of a Gun and ideally something better than regular Pistols, you're effectively playing with a slightly better Chaingun. Bullet damage also is one of the worst types as it has none of the benefits that Fire, Plasma, or Acid do, and is commonly resisted by some enemies, in particular Revenants, but also by anything picking up many different armors throughout each level. A few times, I had a Baron wearing a Gothic Armor who mostly shut down all of my damage. Fortunately, it's still trivial to kill everything.

Like other rapid-fires, Bullet Dance has significant disadvantages compared to Shotguns, BFGs, and explosives. To be able to hit enemies, you have to be aiming fairly bang-on to their positions, and they won't always be nicely aligned at a straight angle. After a few hits, you'll often knockback an enemy out of your line of fire and need to re-adjust. Rapid-fire is also awful at clearing groups since you have no area of effect damage and no piercing, meaning enemies clumped in the back have to get cut through to get to. Clearing floors can be extremely slow.

And what might make Bullet Dance terrible indirectly is all the traits it blocks. Eagle Eye blocked means that you can't pump up accuracy, which is a massive problem for a rapid-fire that is intended to be ammo efficient. Granted, most pistol weapons have decent accuracy, but even end-game setups tend to not reach maximum accuracy and hurts the damage potential and also the reliability. With Eagle Eye blocked, Intuition also is blocked, and holy shit was this awful to play without it. Clearing floors with having to hunt down enemies is a huge slog, especially with Archviles sneaking by, Nightmare Demons silently hiding, easily missing monsters that could have been detected, and firing blindly into the void after knocking back enemies out of line of fire. Not being able to beeline for Computer Maps that could be visible also slows down scouting floors significantly, and I also rarely ever used levers which may have been helpful at times.

Furthermore, Hellrunner and Dodgemaster are blocked, which grinds you down to a halt. Firing is ridiculously fast, but any other sort of action often results in enemies quickly shifting around and occasionally getting double attacks in. This also impacts trying to adjust positioning for firing after knockbacking for better angles, so generally I would just stay in place and fire blindly.

The worst floors were Agony Elemental caves, which would take forever because of such poor crowd control. I also think the floors starting with nukes would have been very difficult to fully clear if the difficulty was Ultra-Violence.

The act of needing to dual reload constantly, using aimed shot early on, and juggling ammo to control it effectively also slows down gameplay a lot. Bullet Dance is viable but has horrible quality of life.

I stuck with Inquisitor set, but Phaseshift set can be a decent alternative to compensate for lack of Hellrunner, but this will require 3 Nano Packs to max out the build. I also opted out of putting points into Reloader since I intended to use Nanomanufacture Combat Pistols and made better use of the trait points at the cost of a harder start.


On this particular game I had horrendously bad luck with Nano Packs, such that I didn't find my first one until floor 198, and then never found a second one, meaning I never properly completed my build. It didn't matter since I still melted everything and usually would be lazy and just fire one Nanomanufacture Combat Pistol so I didn't have to keep reloading. My general strategy was to find an open door and a camping spot, spam Run->Wait, and slowly pick off every enemy.

Throughout this game, I found a total of 10 Onyx Packs:

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I also found a total of 7 BFGs / Nuclear BFGs. Simply using Biggest Fucking Gun would have been far better than Combat Pistols, which doesn't speak highly of Bullet Dance.

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But only the one Nano Pack, which was also super late too:

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Inventory also got interesting for ammo storage throughout the game:

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I stopped the silliness at 8 Miniguns, but I did find 2 more later on. They were basically vanity items and literally never got used anyway. As much ammo as it was, it's still quite a long way off infinity and then instead filling my inventory with actually useful items.

Combat Pistols also came in fairly slow with floors 92, 171, and 218. Interestingly, Grammaton Cleric Beretta also showed up on floor 92:

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And for some other interesting happenings now.

With high reliance on Run->Wait, most items would get picked up by enemies. This one in particular blew up like a pinata:

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I found a Minigun, but it had a guardian:

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What would be a fiery start:

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Easy solution to a maze:

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Cool layout for an island floor:

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On a fresh continuation, I got one of each vault message:

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Amongst the other trolling with Mod Packs, this floor had 4 Power Packs:

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Pretty sweet supply room:

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A little more trolling on the penultimate floor:

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Here's the mortem:

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In conclusion, I give Bullet Dance a solid "At least it's not Entrenchment" out of 10.

After cycling around various challenges tonight, I decided to try a few attempts for Veteran Angelic Badge and got it again! Took more than just my first try this time, but I've now re-earned every badge I've previously had and currently am at 4/17 Angelic Badges on my current file, matching my lifetime count of them all.

This game essentially handed me a free win and while I did have to use some modestly good play early on, the rest was absolute cake.

A few floors in and I had a pretty good arsenal going:

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On the next floor, I found a second nuke, meaning that with enough Invulnerability, I could clear out both the Spider Mastermind and JC without any risk of death, which is important because a full win requires surviving.

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And to get even crazier, I found a third nuke and in the form of a Nuclear Plasma Rifle!

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At the start of floor 6, I saw an Invulnerability, meaning I was pretty much set to go as I could then even use a quick nuke on floor 7 and continue dashing for the end. The floor was a decent challenge though with a fairly hot start in a maze level.

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I blew out the barrel to split the map and cleared the left side, also keeping the Invulnerability safe.

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After everything was dead, the Med-Pack at the top was helping funnel in all the Hell Knights and Barons.

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I had Duelist Armor, Tactical Boots, and Hellrunner x2, giving me some great speed for floor 7.

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And the game sealed the deal giving me another Invulnerability!

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From here, I simply nuked floor 7, 8, and 9, and secured an easy win. Very happy to get lucky breaks like this!

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I'm currently still trying to complete other challenges I haven't before, and although I have got this badge in the past, it's nice to have everything all in one save file. Technically, I am missing 50 JC kills, but other than that, it's all new stuff from here!

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