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Messages - Icy

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I noticed that there are 41 assemblies and 50 medals now, which I'm pretty sure all the dummied out ones in the source code. I'd like to discuss them here:

Assembly: Mother-In-Law - Rocket Launcher (PPPFN) becomes 6d9 Rocket Launcher with instant recharge firing, blast radius 6. I think this is completely fine.

Medal: Medal of Pacifism - Win with 10% or less kills. I'd be fine with this and swap out one of our suggestions. Not a huge fan of it overall though.

Medal: Shotgunnery Cross - Win and killed everything (not necessarily 100%) with Shotguns/Fists. I'd say scrap this as it's basically just completing Angel of Shotgunnery.

Medal: Marksmanship Cross - Win and killed everything (not necessarily 100%) with Pistols/Fists. Scrap it, see above.

Medal: Zen Master's Cross - Win and killed everything (not necessarily 100%) without ever using Fists/Knives/Shotguns/Pistols. This is weird, I'd say no.

Medal: Purple Heart - Reach experience level 20+ and die. lolno

Medal: Gutts' Sorrow - Die while wielding Dragonslayer. lolno

Medal: Klear Cross - Nuke at least 12 levels in one game. This is basically the same as the other nuking medals, which revolves around finding Trigun. Granted, using it 12 times would require at least Ironman x2 with all Trigun nukes. I'd say no.

Regarding Throw for Combat Knife and Mjollnir, I agree. I was surprised when I looked up that Eagle Eye improves the accuracy and Brute does not. I would also argue that Finesse should improve the speed, which it currently does not. Furthermore, I haven't tested or checked this, but Brute's damage and Son of a Bitch should also affect Throw if they don't already. This also would indirectly give Mjollnir a nice buff.

Regarding bridges, I agree, but it might be too difficult to implement.

Regarding having enemies become revealed when there are only a few left, I'm leaning towards disagreeing. It would be a pretty fundamental change to the game, would affect a lot of levels and builds, and feels very non-canonical. Angel of Red Alert would become a lot easier, Angel of Darkness with it active would be weird, and almost all bonus levels with it would make them much easier (Hell's Arena, Chained Court, Hell's Armory, Spider's Lair, etc).

Two suggestions I had:

For darkness levels, the special message in the postmortems has a comma after the number, which prevents the forum's mortem tags on colouring the number. For example, change "On level 15, he was stumbling in the dark!" to "On level 15 he was stumbling in the dark!".

We've already discussed buffing Reloader from 20% to 25%, but I'm going to boldly suggest buffing this more to 30%. I feel like 30% would be very fast and truly make players start considering using it over other traits, instead of only picking it when their master trait requires it. I think getting up to 90% would also draw players into getting Reloader x3, which I can't seem to find anyone ever using it. 90% reloading speed would make most reloads close to instant, which is very powerful, but does require investment into it to make use of it. I'm slightly cautious about it possibly making Shotguns overpowered in the early game if you have Reloader x2, leading to a Shotgun having 1.0 firing speed and 0.4 reloading speed, as opposed to Finesse x2 with 0.6 firing speed and 1.0 reloading speed. However, the Finesse branch has arguably better advanced traits, and ammo boxes can nullify Reloader anyway. Shottyman also makes the need for Reloader mostly irrelevant for Shotguns anyway, but Reloader x3 could be useful for Minigun, Plasma Rifle, and others.

Some more suggestions after playing a more thorough game of the new beta version.

For the dodging bonus value on the stats screen, I think it should include the bonus value when running.

For levers that destroy walls, only make a singular explosion sounds, instead of seemingly dozens.

If Containment Area is destroyed by a nuke, disable the trap.

If Abyssal Plains is destroyed by a nuke, disable the wall trap. I'd say still let the Agony Elemental spawn.

Tonight, I decided to do a more thorough game of the new version and still having a lot of limitations on what modes I can play, I went for a pure Angel of Light Travel. I was considering going for a conqueror, but I quickly remembered that the inventory space doesn't quite allow for it. Despite that, I got pretty close anyway.

Like Omega Tyrant reported, I had the same freeze regarding killing streaks, where you can clearly see that I took damage but didn't lose my kill streak. I'm thinking that it's just the current value that's bugged.

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Some Schematics. Like I suggested, I'm not a fan of these since it doesn't let games be truly independent. Newer players still collecting all the assemblies definitely could use the extra Mod Pack more than I would too.

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Hellrunner + Tactical Armor appear to be working correctly here for the dodging bonus. I would like to see it change while running too though.

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I encountered a lever that blows up walls and was expecting a single explosion sound like Omega Tyrant described. It seems like each wall tile individually made the sound as I felt like I was about to go deaf.

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I found a nuke and blew up Containment Area, but then also triggered the trap. I mentioned this in the suggestions thread, but overlooked nuking the level should disable the trap.

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I wasn't intending to enter Abyssal Plains, but found both Trigun and Invulnerability on the floor before lol.

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Similar to Containment Area, this map is a little buggy when you blow it up first.

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I encountered a darkness level! Everything seemed to work as intended with stair sense not working, no respawns, and the darkness was maintained. Very cool!

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I also found Mjollnir. Having tossed Chainsaw earlier, this opened up yet another possibility for conquering a level. However, finding this seemed to be more of a curse as I later found.

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This was a goofy weapon to be using against the Cyberdemon, but I made it work.

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Having not used Mjollnir before, I noticed that alternate firing visually showed its range. Is this new to the version or is this normal?

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My kill streak increased to 108 it seems.

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Example of Demons still getting stuck.

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So, I considered getting Brute to help kill the Angel of Death, but opted to go for Ironman after all the Angel Arm usage. Luckily, I learned reading the wiki that Brute wouldn't help with accuracy anyway when using Throw. I also learned that its accuracy was far less than 50% and I circled the level a pile of times trying to kill the Angel of Death with cheese. A lot of the hits I ended up getting were standard melee hits. Mjollnir sucks.

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I got a message saying "You don't have a Longinus Spear!", which I don't recall seeing before. Is this normal? Is this new? I'm guessing it might be for first time pickups of exotics and uniques?

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With no way to clear the Vaults without Invulnerability, I opted to go for 100% kills and skip conqueror.

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With low maximum HP, I was definitely not checking what spawned over here.

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Bad mistake having a barrel blow up on me and get dumped into a pool of lava, but I was able to survive. I had range issues with Nano-Shrapnel Double Shotgun and remembered why I never make the assembly in that base.

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Archviles dying to fluids is a huge nerf, but I think a very good balance change. I made good use of it here.

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The rest of the game wasn't particularly interesting. I cleared out the last few floors, then blew up the Spider Mastermind using another Angel Arm. Got a good pile of badges and medals for this game.


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I can agree with both suggestions. Scavenger definitely wouldn't be overpowered for standard games, but it would become very strong for Angel of 100 and especially Archangel of 666. However, it wouldn't be broken by any means, and the trait itself becomes irrelevant after completing your equipment anyway, while blocking and not boosting core traits. It'd be a good balance change.

For the newest version, the big change that I think needs to be reverted is not being able to fire out of range. I understand the argument for it in reducing the tactics of cornershooting, radar shooting, and others, but they are pretty fundamental to the game at this point. Even when not trying to take advantage of them, it can be annoying to need to keep my cursor around my character to fire, as I generally have it on the outer edges as I'm usually trying to move at the same time. This restriction can also prevent specific shots being made correctly, such as firing across a map at a tile you can't aim at with only those in your vision, trying to fire a specific location with Revenant's Launcher just slightly out of vision range, and many other situations. This change should go back.


I've started and stopped a few Archangel of 666 games, usually after finishing testing a build and then getting bored, but this time I decided to finish up the game. With the new version being worked on, I figured this would be a good last hurrah for version which I've been playing off and on for about 10 years.

With Sharpshooter, damage is incredibly consistent and good for planning, and has the best ammo efficiency of almost any build. Full clearing 666 still mostly devolves to getting Biggest Fucking Gun and cleaning up after, of which Sharpshooter is decent at, but there are definitely better builds for it. One of the nice things with Pistols and Son of a Gun x5 though is with a firing speed of 0.1s, it gives the fastest action speed while still being able to recharge the BFG, keeping enemies in place as much as possible.

As I wasn't anticipating finding a pile of Nano Packs, the last three traits of Eagle Eye x2 and Reloader went to waste and would have better as Finesse x2 and Juggler. The former three were for Grammaton Cleric Beretta, which didn't see too much use overall really.

Compared to my other 666 full clears, this time I didn't have Tough as Nails x3 or Badass x2, and I found myself needing to be less aggressive and healing more since I only had half health and took more damage. I also overlooked that this would damage my armor more, which was an issue at a few points. Still, this was HNTR so it wasn't a huge deal. I also ended up using Cerberus equipment for the most part as Inquisitor Set and Phaseshift Set weren't sturdy enough without the extra defensive traits.

Sharpshooter is a very good trait, even with a tough start, but it's not particular great at full clearing long games like this.

Overall, this was a pretty fun game and I've now done a 666 full clear with each class.


Some highlights:

On the very first floor due to a lucky vault, I was able to get Red Armor (P). This is a really nice help for a build that starts off weak:

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Early Gothic Armor was a nice find:

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Getting Whizkid a bit later than I normally would, my inventory was getting stacked with mod packs:

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Early Malek's Armor was also nice:

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I already had my end-game armor by floor 27, which actually was a lot later than it could have been if I invested in Whizkid early:

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Hot start:

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Split islands:

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Very goofy vault:

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Another hot start:

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While Storm Bolter Pistol was my primary weapon for awhile, Energy Pistol was really nice for an additional ammo type, and being able to punch holes into walls:

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Nano Pack on floor 95:

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Hot start, or maybe a cold one I guess:

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Grammaton Cleric Beretta on floor 99, which was mostly a boss killer early on:

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Another hot start:

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Silly Archvile line:

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On a floor I was preparing to nuke, something at the edge of my vision caught my eye:

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It was a bit of a puzzle to grab, but I did get it:

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Horrendous inventory as I was waiting to find a Combat Pistol to make my end-game weapon:

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Interesting floor:

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Trigun exactly 100 floors after GCB, which was a nice power upgrade:

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More Nano Packs. With this, I went for Biggest Fucking Gun (N):

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Finally on floor 256, I found a Combat Pistol:

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Going for a strike:

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Another Nano Pack. I used this one for Antigrav Phaseshift Boots:

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And another:

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I decided to go for a nice explosion here:

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The explosion gave a hefty wall of text in my messages:

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Another split island, this one with a vault:

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Found Dragonslayer, but not using it for this game:

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Found it a second time too:

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Finally found Inquisitor Boots, but didn't end up using them much anyway:

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Double nuke room near the end of my game:

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Saw another Nano Pack on the second last floor. I likely blew up some throughout the game, but this one survived:

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Final stats screen:

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Here's the mortem

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Discussion / Nano Pack Mechanics
« on: September 01, 2023, 18:00 »
Nano Packs are one of the most powerful items in the game, and are always highly sought after. They are a part of some of the strongest assemblies in the game, and can functionally give you infinite ammo for most weapons. Despite this, seemingly no player fully understands how they work as I've talked with players from top skill all the way down. There are a few reasons for this though as Nano Packs work somewhat unintuitively where you would only understand it if you've delved into the code. They also tend to be used for assemblies and not really focused on what they individually do. Finally, they are also rare enough that most players never find more than one in a game unless they're playing Angel of 100 or Archangel of 666. Because of this, I decided to explain the mechanics and details of them and how to best take advantage of its power.

Recharge Amount and Recharge Delay

First, items that recharge have two different properties which are the recharge amount and the recharge delay. Recharge amount is how much an item recharges on an action. For example, Blaster's recharge amount is 1, while Nuclear Plasma Rifle's recharge amount is 4. Recharge delay is how many actions have to pass before the recharging begins. For weapons, you have to not be firing, and for armors, you have to not be taking damage. For example, Malek's Armor has a recharge delay of 10, meaning 10 actions of not taking damage have to pass before it begins recharging durability. Nuclear BFG has a recharge delay of 0, so even after immediately firing, it already begins recharging.

Below are the following values for recharge amount and recharge delay:

Blaster - 1, 3
Nuclear Plasma Rifle - 4, 4
Nuclear BFG - 1, 0

Malek's Armor - 5, 10
Necroarmor - 2, 0
Nyarlaptotep's Boots - 5, 10

Tactical Armor - 2, 10
Tactical Boots - 2, 10
Power Armor - 5, 10
Nanofiber Skin Armor - 1, 5

One small detail is that the action must take at least 0.1s. If you have achieved a speed faster than that, whether it's moving, firing, or any other action, you will get a non-recharge action and get no recharge. There are only a few cases where this is relevant.

Nano Pack Mechanics

When it comes to applying a Nano Pack to an item, there are a few different checks it goes through before deciding what it does. First, the item is checked if it can already recharge. If it can, it will either reduce the recharge delay by 5, or if the recharge delay is already 0, it will add 1 to the recharge amount instead. If the item doesn't recharge, the Nano Pack will turn the item into one that recharges with a recharge delay of 5 and a recharge amount of 1 for weapons and 2 for armor.

For some examples, if a Nano Pack is applied to a plain Shotgun, it will become Shotgun (N) which has a recharge amount of 1 and a recharge delay of 5. If a Nano Pack is applied to a Blaster, it will reduce the recharge delay by 5, bringing it to 0, so your Blaster (N) will still have a recharge amount of 1, but have a recharge delay of 0 instead of 3. If a Nano Pack is applied to a Nuclear BFG, the recharge delay is already 0, so it instead will increase the recharge amount by 1, so Nuclear BFG (N) will have a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0.

The big appeal of these mechanics, and also very expensive, is when you begin using double or even triple Nano Packs on items. If you take a Shotgun (N), which has a recharge amount of 1 and a recharge delay of 5, and apply a second Nano Pack to it, Shotgun (NN) will have a recharge amount of 1, and a recharge delay of 0. As long as you don't encounter non-recharge actions, you can endlessly fire similar to Nano-Shrapnel and Nanomanufacture assemblies, but you have room for 3 extra mods instead of just 1 after completing the assembly.

Double Nano Packs and Triple Nano Packs

Let's look into various hypothetical items that can be created as a non-assembly with multiple Nano Packs.

Combat Pistol (PPPBB) is generally the cheap option for an extremely strong Pistol, but some players opt to go with Nanomanufacture Combat Pistol (P) for infinite firing and a little less power. However, you can instead go with Combat Pistol (PPPNN) which gives both the higher power while also being infinitely firing too. Alternatively, you could also go with Combat Pistol (PNNSS) to be able to fire infinitely and cancel accuracy penalties of distance and darkness. With Son of a Gun x5 reducing firing speed to 0.1s exactly, the additional speed multipliers of being a Scout or being Berserk can cause you to get non-recharge actions, but the natural clip of 15 is also helpful if you're getting these.

Plasma Shotgun has unique properties with a shotgun blast dealing Plasma damage, but can be very ammo hungry and doesn't fit well with Nano-Shrapnel assembly. However, if you were to make Plasma Shotgun (NNNPP) or (NNNTT), it would be recharging 2 ammo after each shot taking 3, giving you a full 30 shots of continuous firing even in the worst case scenario. This weapon is incredibly powerful at destroying corpses, walls, and has the best shotgun blast type, having the best range, depth, and lowest damage reduction. Multiple Nano Packs can turn it into a solo weapon instead of just a support.

Nano-Shrapnel Super Shotgun (P) is often viewed as one of the god weapons of the game, giving 6d4x2 Piercing damage that can be endlessly fired. However, Super Shotgun (NNNPP) also provides infinite firing with recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0, and while being Shrapnel damage instead of Piercing, it boasts a massive 10d4x2, which is significantly more powerful that Nano-Shrapnel Super Shotgun and other variants. You could also opt to go with (NNNTT) for even faster firing and still higher damage with 8d4x2.

Rocket Launcher (NNFFF) allows for 2 extra Firestorm Packs over Nanomanfacture Rocket Launcher (F), giving a much larger blast radius. With the non-assembly, multi Nano Pack build, the blast radius reaches a massive 10, able to blow up a giant portion of each floor, while also being able to be fired infinitely.

Nuclear BFG (NNNFF) gives a recharge amount of 4 and a recharge delay of 0, meaning you can fire a giant BFG ball every 10 actions and melt everything. It's not as massive as the radius from Biggest Fucking Gun, but you can fire the non-assembly variant pretty repetitively. You can also go with a regular BFG (NNNBB) to have a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 0, but holding a clip of 169 cells, letting you fire 4 consecutive shots and then being able to recharge for more later.

Laser Rifle normally fires far too many shots, but with the Marine's Ammochain firing only 1 shot per burst, Laser Rifle (NNFFF) becomes infinitely firing like Nanomanufacture Laser Rifle (F), but shoots out 4 extra shots per burst, giving a giant increase in damage. With Triggerhappy x2 and Son of a Bitch x5, you'll get 13 shots per burst, which you can endlessly shoot, each doing 1d7 + 5, giving a maximum damage of 156 and average damage of 117 every time you press to shoot.

As you can see, many of these weapons are ridiculously powerful, but of course come at extremely high costs that likely are only obtainable during Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666 games.

Medical Armor

Because Onyx Pack exists for armors, Nano Packs are inferior as you can have infinite durability instead of recharging durability. However, there is one exception to this with Medical Armor, as the healing effect from it comes from durability. Onyx Packs don't technically make armors have infinite durability, but instead hide it and skip the check when taking damage. However, Medical Armor healing doesn't do this, so you can still have your Medical Armor (O) drop down to 1%.

A single Nano Pack will result in Medical Armor (N) with a recharge amount of 2 and recharge delay of 5, meaning that you can let the armor recharge after healing you, but you have to finish taking damage first before it kicks in. There is a way around this however, with Nanofiber Skin Armor assembly made with Medical Armor, essentially giving you a Medical Armor already having a recharge amount of 1 and recharge delay of 5, and then finishing the item with a Nano Pack, giving a recharge amount of 1 and recharge delay of 0. What this means is that as soon as you take damage, Medical Armor will heal you like normal, but also immediately restore 1 durability. If you were to continuously be taking 1 damage, you can then immediately heal 1 damage, and the armor will self-repair for the same amount. This means you can find a nice pool of acid to stand in and hypothetically take infinite damage, possibly leading to adverse effects as the variable for tracking damage taken might either cap off, or possibly roll over back to 0. This could be an alternative way to earn Iron Skull instead of using Vampyre as well.


Hopefully with this information, more players will understand better how Nano Packs work and consider making some of the hypothetical weapons possible if they're fortunate to find multiples. I've requested that the Medical Armor exploit be fixed in a future version, with an easy fix of Nanofiber Skin Armor having a recharge delay of 6, preventing the value from reaching 0.

I agree with both buffs. It would help make it far more viable, wouldn't be game-breaking at all, would likely still be a mid-tier build as you said, and also isn't a dramatic change.

I can agree with all of that.

Sounds good.

Updated the main posts with everything.

I think if trap rooms were to be implemented, the items would have to still be obtainable, as opposed to disappearing as you get close, and also not impact the weight of other items generated, similar to how ammo rooms and vaults work. From there, as you suggested, maybe make it a 50% chance or so that you would get the same effect from a monster lever pull? I think it would be fine under these circumstances. It'd be pretty advantageous for a Blademaster build.

One small suggestion I have is changing the colour of Sniper Mod Pack so that it's distinguished from Firestorm Mod Packs. Currently they have identical colours. Maybe make it brown or green?

I can agree with your suggested changes. For Combat Knifes given to the Elite Formers, their damage rolls could simply be changed to 2d5, which I would also agree with. This would balance out Military Base by making it hard, and making them more threatening later in the game. It would also give a tiny nerf to melee builds, which I think is reasonable.

Regarding trap power-ups, I'm leaning more towards disagreement as it would pretty fundamentally change the game where you need to be cautious about every item, as opposed to currently where the only caution is what's around the item. Potentially causing the player to avoid picking up anything, or needing to consider more luck factors in something that is already perceived as earned doesn't sit well with me.

Regarding shields, I actually forgot about that mechanic about IF_NODEGRADE, so 50% durability with 80% all resistance should be fine.

I agree with everything else.

Regarding Technician modability, I think Grammaton Cleric Beretta and Medical Powerarmor taking basic assemblies would be fine. Necroarmor might be a bit odd as it could become indestructible with Onyx Pack, but I think it wouldn't be insane. Shielded Armor feels like it would be powerful, but looking at basic assemblies, it really wouldn't improve that much. I'm for all of them.

I think the proposed Environmental Boots with reducing damage to 1 could still work as a cheap, knock-off Cerberus Boots, allowing players to use Power Mod Packs for other gear, or getting something very resistant before Whizkid x2. Since you believe it would still be weak and unused, would you accept the suggested buffs?

Speedloader Pistols can be nice to avoid dangerous reloads in the early game, but it's definitely a bit underwhelming and very specialized. I think 0.4s reload speed would open it up more. It is still a Pistol that can no longer take Mod Packs like an unmodded Pistol.

Regarding Power Armor, fair points on it being a strong early armor when in Red Armor. One way that you could make it a nice all-in-one assembly is it takes a common armor and double Fire Resistance, triples Plasma Resistance, and quintuples Bullet/Shrapnel Resistance.

Regarding the Glass Shield idea, I initially thought 50% durability, but it would only take one hit before the resistances get shattered. What if it was 95% all resistances and 50% durability?

For the Grappling Armor idea, it would be to help melee characters charge into enemies more, which can often just knock you back. Do you think +50% Melee Resistance would be too much?

As suggested by Omega Tyrant in Discord, change the difficulty suggestion of Archangel of Humanity from "TwoDev" to "Tormuse".

Since medals and badges are pretty well wrapped up now, let's do weapons, armors, and assemblies next.

There was some discussion on what uniques a Technican could mod but no depth into it yet. Currently, Cybernetic Armor is fully moddable, while Railgun and BFG 10K can take basic assemblies and an extra mod after. My suggestions are let Frag Shotgun and Jackhammer take a basic assembly too (which is either Plasmatic Shrapnel or a single mod), and let Revenant's Launcher be fully moddable, which probably would be strongest in Nanomanufacture without being broken. Maybe also have Anti-Freak Jackal take a basic assembly too.

Thinking more about Environmental Boots, despite already making them BBT, I still think they wouldn't get used too much. How about buffing the resistances to 95% for both acid and lava, so players may opt for them over Cerberus Boots?

I think Speedloader Pistol is pretty wasteful to only decrease reloading speed from 1.2s to 0.6s with no other changes. What if it were 0.4s instead?

I think Power Armor is expensive for not doing a whole lot overall. What if it tripled the original resistances instead of just double?

Maybe give Assault Rifle a tiny buff with having original+3 Accuracy instead of just +2?

New exotic suggestion: Acid-Proof Armor, which is 3 Protection, 95% Acid Resistance, -10% move speed, and everything else normal. This would be a fairly unique armor that provides a difficult resistance to obtain, and allow for more options beyond Cerberus Armor in everything.

New exotic suggestion: Glass Shield, which is 0 Protection, 75% durability, 80% all resistances, but cannot be repaired or modded. Basically like the other shields, but with less lasting power and more well-roundedness.

New exotic suggestion: Glass Armor, which is 0 Protection, 50% durability, 50% all resistances. It would either become Cybernano Armor, which would require committing to it and being expensive, or otherwise going with AOP/AOT/OPT.

New assembly suggestion: Grappling Armor (BA), which is original +30% melee resistance and knockback -50%. This can be a nice early armor for melee characters, and would make use of a Bulk + Agility assembly, which is the only basic mod pack pair that doesn't exist as an assembly.

New assembly suggestion: Sniper Rifle (BAS) (Chaingun only), which is exactly the same as a Chaingun, but it has the auto-hit property. It'd give Chainguns a better buff for middle and late game, and wouldn't be too insanely overpowered I think.

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