Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: leonresevil2 on February 28, 2010, 18:19
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I have been thinking, what does the agility mod really do for weapons? Of course, it increases accuracy. Meaning, it increases the chance that each bullet fired will hit. The issue is, shotguns always hit within their shot patterns. So, the agility mod is currently useless to shotguns.
However let's look at this a little bit differently, not basing the numbers off of DoomRL, but just a representation of concept. Say you fire 10 chaingun bullets, and 5 hit, 5 miss, on average. You apply an agility mod, and now your average is 6 hit, 4 miss. Another mod, and it becomes 7-3. Now, let's say that a shotgun fires 100 bits of shrapnel in each fire. Estimate for sake of simplicity that the shotgun has a 100 degree blast angle, therefore 10 shrapnel go each 10 degrees. So, an enemy up close is likely to be hit from most or all shrapnel, and an enemy far away is likely to be hit with 10 or less shrapnel. Let's say an enemy is far enough away that 10 shrapnel approach him, and only 5 hit. My thought is, apply the agility mod, and now 6 or seven shrapnel hit. Of course, at closer distances, more shrapnel will hit each time.
The idea is almost like auto-targeting bullet shrapnel, but the idea can be implemented in a few ways. I will attempt to demonstrate how I can see the implementations, represented by an image with the character, shooting a shotgun, and numbers representing the "relative" damage, not accurate to the game, but damage to an enemy in that square compared to damage at other squares.
The normal estimate damage map:
...1......
.4321.....
@54321....
.4321.....
...1......
Implementation 1, concentrating (auto-targeting) shrapnel in mods 1-3:
...2...... ...3...... ...4......
.5432..... .6543..... .7654.....
@65432.... @76543.... @87654....
.5432..... .6543..... .7654.....
...2...... ...3...... ...4......
Implementation 2, extending blast radius in mods 1-3:
...11..... ...111.... ...1111...
.43211.... .432111... .4321111..
@543211... @5432111.. @54321111.
.43211.... .432111... .4321111..
...11..... ...111.... ...1111...
Implementation 3, slowing dropoff in mods 1-3:
...21..... ...221.... ...3221...
.43321.... .443321... .4433221..
@543321... @5544321.. @55443321.
.43321.... .443321... .4433221..
...21..... ...221.... ...3221...
Basically, Im. 1 is similar to (I assume) the effects of a power mod, but would keep shotguns as close-range weapons. Im. 2 makes shotguns the perfect scouting weapons, as enemies from longer distances can be hit for sure, but will only receive minimum damage at any ranges outside of the existing shotgun ranges. Im. 3 slows down the damage drop-off, making the shotgun better at close and medium ranges, plus still great for scouting (probably better than Im 2 since the damage at long range is likely to be slightly larger.), but possibly over-powered and unbalancing for the game.
Please vote on which implementation you feel would be better for the game, or make your own suggestions and recommendations. Remember, these numbers and images are not based on the game damage rates, but simply to get the ideas across in visual form. Thank you for reading, and I hope you appreciate the effort put in to the post.
EDIT: I personally am not going to vote, as I would like to hear the thoughts and ideas from the community here, the more expert players, and Kornel, as he knows what the mods are supposed to do. The goal here is to create an improvement to shotguns by utilizing an existing mod option, and making the mod effective a way that is balanced yet useful for shotgun users. I am a shotgun user, but I want to hear what you all think.
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Alright, who voted and didn't offer imput? I think option two would be preferable, as it would add more usefulness to the double shotty, because at this point in time I rarely use it due to the frustratingly short range.
Now, I'm not suggesting that a single agility mod make the double shotty into substitute Jackhammer, but adding one more tile of range won't hurt, and it makes advanced shottys more valuable.
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Agreed, the effects of the mods would have to be balanced in order to prevent over-powered shotguns. Most shotguns have a lot of theoretical damage potential, but they tend to lose that awesomeness and 'kick' in the later game, combined with the thinning amounts of shotgun ammo in the late game. MAD helps to balance out the weakness of shrapnel damage, but that shotgun Master build still has some weaknesses in range, ammo, weapon variety, move speed, etc. I am hoping to see one of the key elements of the game (agility mods) become useful for one of the character build options in the game (shotgunner). A shotgun build shouldn't be OP compared to the other build options, but should stand comparable. So, the implementations I have listed would need to be balanced in code effects and such, to add effects from the agility mod(s) without making a shotgun build the best option. As it is, MAc is one of the easiest builds to win with, if you play safe and take advantage of the game elements. In short, I want it to be balanced, which is why I am not taking a side in voting or anything, I just want to see agility mods implemented for shotguns in a 'proper' way.
On that note, I have still not voted, I am unsure which method would work, and I am still thinking about it. In fact, a friend of mine (who has not played the game [yet]) suggested that, in his mind, increasing accuracy for a shotgun could either make the blast range thinner yet more concentrated and powerful (and possibly longer), or increase the spread width (I think that's how I understood him). I could draw up these ideas if anyone is interested in them, and I can change the voting options (and you can still re-vote I believe). The voting options are limited to 5, AFAIK, which makes additional options hard to add (I would maybe remove "Other").
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[...]but that shotgun Master build still has some weaknesses in range, ammo, weapon variety, move speed, etc.
Maybe so, but can any other Master build clear an entire room full of enemies with only a very little amount of ammo spent?
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Yeah. Ammochain.
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Just saw a mention of advanced weapons (they still exist? o.O) and wanted to remind you that one this release canidate is tested, they wont be around to play with anymore. On the plus side, a wide range of exotics will accept one mod.
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Just saw a mention of advanced weapons (they still exist? o.O) and wanted to remind you that one this release canidate is tested, they wont be around to play with anymore. On the plus side, a wide range of exotics will accept one mod.
Wait. Advanced weapons are gone? Any particular reason? I thought I heard something about this awhile back, but I didn't take it seriously. I never saw anything posted, or any talk about the pros and cons of removing advanced weapons. Advanced weapons and modding were probably my favorite parts of the game. Will Whizkid be removed too?
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Wait. Advanced weapons are gone? Any particular reason? I thought I heard something about this awhile back, but I didn't take it seriously. I never saw anything posted, or any talk about the pros and cons of removing advanced weapons. Advanced weapons and modding were probably my favorite parts of the game. Will Whizkid be removed too?
Yes...In 0.9.9.1, Adv weapons, and the Adv tech pack no longer exsist. And no, whiz kid will not be removed, in fact, it's getting either a buff or a nerf, I forget which.
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Hmm. Well, whizkid can't be nerfed much more as it is, with advanced weapons being removed. Will the focus of the game be moving towards more Uniques and Exotics to choose from? Without the ability to modify weapons extensively to the player's needs... I'm slightly depressed to hear that removal.
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Maybe, in some weird way that I can't really guess at the moment, that modding will actually be more useful than it is now? I can only guess what might be going on in Kornel's mind.
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Maybe, in some weird way that I can't really guess at the moment, that modding will actually be more useful than it is now? I can only guess what might be going on in Kornel's mind.
Maybe it will be better. I will try the public release when it arrives, but I am slightly disappointed that this change occurred without (public) notification or anything to see what users thought. I will try the new version, as I said, and I may have to put up a bounty eventually to get advanced weapons back (if I really want to see them back, depending on how the change goes).
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Maybe it will be better. I will try the public release when it arrives, but I am slightly disappointed that this change occurred without (public) notification or anything to see what users thought. I will try the new version, as I said, and I may have to put up a bounty eventually to get advanced weapons back (if I really want to see them back, depending on how the change goes).
If it means that much to you, you should be one of the beta testers and get yourself heard.
The decision to drop Advanced weapons was not one made on a whim.
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Yeah. Ammochain.
Maybe so, but that leaves you completely open to retaliation after each volley. Unlike a shotgun build.
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Yes...In 0.9.9.1, Adv weapons, and the Adv tech pack no longer exsist. And no, whiz kid will not be removed, in fact, it's getting either a buff or a nerf, I forget which.
Twas buffed to "Any moddable weapon gains 2 mod slots, armours gain 1 mod slot".
Without the ability to modify weapons extensively to the player's needs... I'm slightly depressed to hear that removal.
Sure you can, only now you just need to be level 4 instead of obscenely lucky.
Maybe so, but that leaves you completely open to retaliation after each volley. Unlike a shotgun build.
You're still open to retaliation, but you've got TaN 2 and you're probably running, so you'd take less damage.
As for the actual topic at hand, agility mods could reduce the spread factor by 10% per mod and increase maxrange by 1.
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You're still open to retaliation, but you've got TaN 2 and you're probably running, so you'd take less damage.
But not as much. If you're doing it right, you'd be corner-shooting the bastards.
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Reducing the spread and increasing the concentration definitely makes the most logical sense, but I'm not sure how much gameplay sense that makes. I'm not a big fan of the double shotgun, but isn't the main point its ridiculous spread? On the other hand, it's not like anybody's forcing you to use it.
That's probably the best solution overall.
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About elimination of advanced weapons: this sounds much better, especially if it means we would be finding more exotic weapons in their place. In theory, having 12 mods on your weapon sounds pretty cool--but the odds of having the stars align enough for you to find the advanced weapon you need, plus all the mods for it, in a game where your build includes 2 levels of whizkid, is practically zero. Unless you're playing Ao100, I guess. But even then, exotics might be better.
On MAD shotgun versus Ammochain: both have their strengths and weaknesses. Shotgun builds are awesome against massive hordes and pretty good against strong individual demons, while ammochain is pretty good against massive hordes and awesome against strong individual demons. Which is better would depend on the situation--how big the group is, and how strong the demons are. Either one would work pretty well though.
And finally, back to the original topic: I think diminishing damage reduction sounds best. I don't like the idea of narrowing the cone--that would make the shotgun slightly less useful in one way. And I think mods should always improve the weapon or armor you use them on.
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I think diminishing damage reduction sounds best. I don't like the idea of narrowing the cone--that would make the shotgun slightly less useful in one way. And I think mods should always improve the weapon or armor you use them on.
It sounds like you would be voting for the third Implementation.
I personally did not recommend narrowing the cone, it is just an idea that someone mentioned as a possibility. The 3 Implementations are the best ways I can imagine improving the shotgun with the agility mod, without making it obscenely overpowered.
As for the advanced weapon issue, I suppose it is logical to remove them, with the new Exotics, and the buff to Whizkid. Hopefully the weapon stats will not be nerfed much (applying the max number of Power mods in 0.9.9.1 should have an effect somewhat comparable to max Power mods in 0.9.9), and more exotics/less mods generated perhaps. I was always excited to find an advanced weapon, but I suppose the rarity of it being applicable is reasonable. However, Uniques can be just the same way. I just liked saving up my mods and building up a super-weapon when I could; I suppose reducing the need to save mods would allow for more healthpacks. It will change my play style, but it's probably a change for the better.
/whine
EDIT: corrected Implementation mention from first to third.