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Messages - Aki

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Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 16, 2013, 06:11 »

Err. I never said "buff melee".

I said we need more melee bases. The only normal melee base is the knife. For pistols, only one is the pistol. Shotgun has 3 different bases, and chainfire has 2.

And I see more Shotgun/Chainfire random specials than pistol or melee.

But that would be in effect buffing melee.


Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 16, 2013, 05:22 »
Good point, LD.

In practice, this means that Berserker always grants berserk effect on an Archvile attack for a char with Iro<=1 (note that Marines have an inherent Iro=1 for this purpose!). This example is happening frequently enough to make Iro 2+ rather counterproductive for melee builds.

Also note that damage taken for purpose of triggering the berserk effect is calculated _before_ applying armor and resistances. Said Vile's attack will only inflict 5 damage to someone wearing a fireproof red armour (55% fire resist and 4 protection), but still will trigger berserk.

Also to note is that a scout/tech without Iro will always go berserk when poked by the Cyberdemon or Angel of Death in melee - run up into their face and smack them around a bit to enjoy the carnage.

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:43 »
I would've posted the mortem, but the file's on another comp that I can't access right now. Maybe I messed up the abbreviation, but I was playing Blademaster, not Malicious Blades. I had an assault shotgun (p) with about 100 shells, a rocket launcher with 2 rocket boxes, and a VBFG 9000 that I loaded up with cells on the ground. Obviously, the shotgun became useless against armored enemies from a distance. For traits, I had HR 3, Bru 5, Int 2, WK 2, DM, Ber, Fin 2, Iro 2. I'll just have to find that mortem and post it.

 The issue became getting stuck on open levels with no cover and no way to close the distance against ranged enemies without taking hits. I had Dodgemaster, and i did my best to zigzag, but I was still taking tons of hits in the later levels from mancubi and such. Eventually I had just burned through my medpacks and only had a few phase devices. Never saw a Cleaver, or Dragonslayer, and no chainsaw mean no ripper. 8d2 all the way.

I'll probably just run a few normal games or other challenges and come back to it later.

Yup, I saw that you posted Blademaster - my response was to Eyro's comment about needing to buff melee, in which I pointed to MMB.

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:31 »
YOU haven't seen a dragonslayer yet, but I have. And cleavers early on. Like all the damn time.

But yes anyway in regards to the original question, dual-wielding chainswords are sometimes the best you can do since you can't rely on the chainsaw spawning on 100 runs, just raise Brute to 5 once you get past XL 12 and throw in some Hellrunner and other support traits. Use your traits and don't always rely on gear and mod pack drops.

This is exactly what i'm trying to say though! It's all luck based! >_<

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:06 »
Naw, that ain't right. I've always found a Cleaver within the first half of 100 runs.

But as I said, it's all luck - despite being able to appear even on dlevel 1, the cleaver has a weight of 2 - twice that of the dragonslayer. So past dlevel 16, you should be seeing 2 cleavers per dragonslayer.

And i've yet to see a dragonslayer.

Announcements / Re: Announcing: Jupiter Hell!
« on: October 15, 2013, 21:45 »
What else can you tell us about Jupiter Hell then? ;o

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 15, 2013, 21:44 »
60+ floors without seeing a Butcher's Cleaver? That ain't right.

Seems pretty right to me, I don't recall getting a cleaver in a few Ao100 games i've played and certainly not in quite a few regular wins i've done. It's all luck.

Announcements / Re: Announcing: Jupiter Hell!
« on: October 15, 2013, 21:21 »
Not at all! I just thought that you coded as well, meaning you'd be throwing your money at yourself. :P

Announcements / Re: Announcing: Jupiter Hell!
« on: October 15, 2013, 20:59 »

Like you've been doing for the past 4 years.  ;-)

W-wait, I thought you were on the development team for this?

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 15, 2013, 20:59 »
Don't kill the newbie with overkill, Aki.  =)

Haha, i'll try not to in future @_@

That said, if anything, melee builds are actually pretty overpowered, especially so when you are not in a challenge that limits yourself to using only melee weapons.

I'd say that the further the game goes on, the better melee gets. For example, the first few levels with melee are "hell". After you get the chainsaw it's not bad if you have some perks in brute, but then you actually have to close the gap to your enemies - which can get you shot up pretty bad - and then actually melee them and deal with their melee damage. After you get the LS or Scythe you can go around with your gibstick and berserking and stuff like that, but you still need to be careful - berserk isn't the invulnerability globe it once used to be, even with a good set of armor you'll find your hp drain really quickly against an archvile pack if you charge straight in. I think it would be overpowered if berserk was any more potent, but considering the amount of skill you need with it along with the investment, I don't think it is.

That's from a UV/N! perspective though, where you start encountering cacodemons and hell knights on dlevel 3. On HNTR and HMP I don't think you face anything worse then a demon until the Anomaly, and by then you'll probably be something like level 6-8 making the balance a little wonkier.

If you are not comfortable with a hybrid approach of using ranged weapons to scout and melee to kill, perhaps you should try a different build.  Some master traits are very overpowered, but only if you exploit them to the fullest.  If not, you'll just get YASD.

And that can pretty much sum up melee builds in general too - otherwise, AoB wouldn't be such a hard challenge :p

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 15, 2013, 19:36 »
I don't really think there's anything wrong with melee.

First of all - you have to take into account Ao100 is a challenge mode. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. As it is, you can already get the dragonslayer on Ao100 - while not the instawin button it was before, 9d9 + brute/berserk. Yeah.

Second, you already have the ripper which is crazily overpowered for a regular game and on Ao100/AAo666 you've a good shot at getting it. 0.5s firetime with something like MBm? Yeah...

Last of all? MMB. You think it's a joke? Think again.

Let's take a good look at it. First of all, it only blocks TaN, Bad, EE, Int, and Berserker. That's pretty generous for a master trait, allowing you to do everything except for rapid fire. Most importantly, you retain access to hellrunner (with HR 2 being one of the requirements) and Finesse/Juggler/Whizkid. This is important for extended games such as Ao100/AAo666.

Now, let's take a look at the individual benefits:

You gain a 50% internal (?) resistance to fire, bullets, and shrapnel as long as a knife is in your off-hand.

This is really only an advantage no matter which way you cut it. The only time I can see this being a disadvantage is if you have 2 shotguns and you swap between them with the 0.8s quickswap - but by the time you have enough EXP to actually pick MMB, this shouldn't really be an issue. You should have a combat/tactical shotgun or something by then.

After that you have Juggler, which allows you to quickswap with hotkeys instantly - essentially making the prepared slot only good for exotics/uniques that don't have a quickswap. But you have 50% resistances to fire/shrapnel/bullets, so who really cares?

Let's take a closer look at the resistances:

Ignoring melee, you gain 50% resistance to anything but:
-Hell Knights
-Former Commandos
-Barons of hell
-Nightmare Imps
-Nightmare Cacodemons
-Plasma shotgun elite shotgun guys
-Laser rifle elite chaingun guys
-Tristar Blaster plasmarifle guys (Hey, I know it's not doom terminology, sue me!)
-Bruiser Brothers
-Arena Masters (lol)
-Spider Masterminds.

Seems like a big list? No, not really, considering the actual spawning of these guys and the difficulty you have taking out most of them. Keep in mind that even deep into Ao100 most big packs are something like a Cyberdemon + VVMMRRB. And you get all this for nothing. For free. So stop your whining!


Secondly, you gain the ability to attack with a weapon in the offhand and equipped slots at once, for half the time each, as long as they're both knives.

And no, knives arn't for pansies. Let's say you have 2 chainswords (which is pretty reasonable on Ao100, PPBB) and Brute 3. That means that you're doing (8d2+9)x2 damage every 0.85s with just MMB + 1 rank in brute, which averages out to be 21 damage per knife for 42 damage per hit. Suddenly it doesn't seem so pansy anymore, right?

Oh, but I forgot that we're a Technician, so we have access to Whizkid as a basic trait, which means there's really no excuse to grab it gotta go fast. And we're on Ao100, so basic mods arn't really a problem. Let's power mod those knives - suddenly we're doing (8d3+9)x2 for 25/50 damage per hit average.

And we're also on Ao100, which means it isn't really ridiculous to plan for something like 15 traits at the very least.

WK-> WK-> HR-> HR-> DM-> Fin-> Bru-> Bru -> MBm-> Bru-> Fin/Jug-> Jug/Fin-> Bru-> Bru-> Fin

So now you're doing some kind of crazy (8d3+15)x2, which is 31/62 at 0.7 seconds. You'll be twohitting anything that's not a boss monster or a nightmare arch-vile.

And if you happen upon a berserk pack you essentially start ripping and tearing.

Oh, and one last thing - The dragonslayer counts as a blade for MMB. Have fun with that! :)

You had me at Heavy Metal.


I'm really looking forward to this. As ZicherCZ said, the different ways of progressing through the game seems interesting and it's really intriguing.

While I feel there might be a Jupiter Hell questions thread popping up soon, there's one important thing that was touched upon, but not expanded upon during the interview:

We want to keep the game relatively short, but introduce complexity by increasing the possibilities in a single playthrough — expanding the game horizontally, not vertically.

What appealed to me about DoomRL is the different levels of complexity added simply by difficulty levels and challenge modes - not tedious, repetitive gameplay that's drawn out forever (Think of it as every game NOT being AAo666, or even Ao100). You can sit down in a 1-2 hour break between classes or at work or something and pump out a gold badge (or a bronze/silver if you're newer), and play a couple of fun games during that time. To do the Platinum or Diamond challenges requires a little bit of planning, thought, and careful slow play (or grabbing the chainsaw and running really fast), and the Angelic badges give you something to strive for - all of this simply being the change between difficulty levels and challenge modes.

The games are long enough that permadeath is a pain in the ass, but not on the scale of something like Sir-Mc-Pimped-out-9000d9000-mofo died after 20 hours of play because of a shitty RNG roll. In addition, there's also a lot of player skill involved, such as knowing when to tank a hit or go for a dodge, when to use XYZ, timing your attacks, cornershooting (While it's rather second-nature to most of us, it's not really intuitive to a newer player) - as opposed to simply "standing in a doorway and tanking mobs 1 vs 1", as I heard it before. It's these things that i've been able to sell DoomRL to friends on to get them to at least give it a go, even if they're not the type of turn-based person.

As you said, the team's focused on expanding the game horizontally, not vertically. Does that mean that you're going to keep most of these features of DoomRL at least in mind when developing Jupiter Hell? And I don't necessarily mean the game mechanics - more the style of keeping the games relatively short (As in, perhaps give or take 50% on a standard DoomRL game), with harder achievements and harder modes taking progressively more time/skill, and always giving the player something to strive for in terms of skill not sheer RNG luck?

I might have made the question a little bit longer then it needed to be, but it's still something that I feel has appealed not just to me as a DoomRL fan but also a reasonably-sized, if not huge part of the fanbase - and you'll probably get a lot more support/publicity for Jupiter Hell if it's that way inclined (Because not everything is Dwarf Fortress, an MMO, or Dark Souls.)

I liked how some mechanic abuse felt more engaging than in typical rougelikes. Corner shooting feels way more tactical, than say, crowding mobs through one door so you only have to deal with them one at a time. It works, it's effective, but it doesn't have that engaging feeling to me. The dodge and movement mechanics in this game also feels more engaging than just turn by turn.


The level of strategy involved with DoomRL, while quick and dirty as put in a previous post, means that there's so many options and so many variation in achievements and gameplay styles rather then just "Tank it out with healing packs and take enemies on one at a time". That's not really fun at all. DoomRL accounts for both skill as a player and "Player skills (traits and modded weapons and stuff)", so there's always room to get better and it doesn't leave you up to the mercy of "Oh, there's X hp of healing there, I can kill Y enemies before I need to grab it and GTFO".

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 13, 2013, 19:34 »
Edited a solution that just came to me then, not sure how workable it actually is though

It can work but you'd need ranks in hellrunner or tactical armor and boots - the first of which would defeat the purpose of the MAD build and the second of which is highly improbable and you might as well have zerk/invun.

Otherwise, you won't really get far without heavy damage - you can't really avoid that +8 accuracy 2d7 even with running and then the demons WILL bite you on a HR-less run. It's the best of the bad bunch, but there has to be SOME other way.

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!
« on: October 13, 2013, 19:11 »
Phase devices are very much your friend, and they're not that rare a spawn; between them and invuln/zerk, your odds of surviving that initial ambush are actually not terrible.

Outside of that? I'm sure it's possible, but I have no idea how. Maybe I've been unusually lucky, but I've found that phases and powerups have made the Bruiser's respawns the real challenge of the Anomoly.

I'm sure it's possible too, and that's what i'm trying to find out. Phase devices rarely spawn for me and invunerability/zerk only work if they're actually on; best way of doing the zerk is of course having berserker then getting hit, but i'm trying to work out a method of coping with it.

As for the Bruisers, those would be the worst if you were going for 100% kill rate or something - but you could simply run past them, even with MAD (I did before).

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