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Author Topic: Quick questions thread!  (Read 208778 times)

Out0fAmmo

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #870 on: October 15, 2013, 13:37 »

So I just did my second run on Ao100 as a Scout with MBm. Levels 1-60 weren't too bad, but at some point during 60s, things became much harder. I died on level 74 after using an emergency phase device which only landed me in more monsters. The thing is, I was stuck with a stupid chainsword the whole time because no chainsaws or other melee weapons aside from knives dropped (I had other weapons, of course, but ran into ammo issues).

Was I just really unlucky with the RNG, or do we really only get knives during Ao100? If that's the case, I'm questioning the potential of a melee build.
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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #871 on: October 15, 2013, 13:49 »

Well, a chainsaw is by no means guaranteed on Ao100, contrary to regular games and challenges containing the Chained Court. So just bad luck, or maybe lack of good luck.
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Out0fAmmo

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #872 on: October 15, 2013, 13:55 »

Yeah, I know it's not guaranteed outside of Chained Court, but I still thought I'd get *something*. It's frustrating to be swimming in mods and have both levels of WK, and most of the assemblies that work with your master trait require a weapon that doesn't even drop.

I'm probably just gonna go MAc on the next one.
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Eyro

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #873 on: October 15, 2013, 14:47 »

Yeah, we need more melee weapon bases and advanced assembles for them. :<
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #874 on: October 15, 2013, 19:36 »

I don't really think there's anything wrong with melee.

First of all - you have to take into account Ao100 is a challenge mode. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. As it is, you can already get the dragonslayer on Ao100 - while not the instawin button it was before, 9d9 + brute/berserk. Yeah.

Second, you already have the ripper which is crazily overpowered for a regular game and on Ao100/AAo666 you've a good shot at getting it. 0.5s firetime with something like MBm? Yeah...

Last of all? MMB. You think it's a joke? Think again.

Let's take a good look at it. First of all, it only blocks TaN, Bad, EE, Int, and Berserker. That's pretty generous for a master trait, allowing you to do everything except for rapid fire. Most importantly, you retain access to hellrunner (with HR 2 being one of the requirements) and Finesse/Juggler/Whizkid. This is important for extended games such as Ao100/AAo666.

Now, let's take a look at the individual benefits:

You gain a 50% internal (?) resistance to fire, bullets, and shrapnel as long as a knife is in your off-hand.

This is really only an advantage no matter which way you cut it. The only time I can see this being a disadvantage is if you have 2 shotguns and you swap between them with the 0.8s quickswap - but by the time you have enough EXP to actually pick MMB, this shouldn't really be an issue. You should have a combat/tactical shotgun or something by then.

After that you have Juggler, which allows you to quickswap with hotkeys instantly - essentially making the prepared slot only good for exotics/uniques that don't have a quickswap. But you have 50% resistances to fire/shrapnel/bullets, so who really cares?

Let's take a closer look at the resistances:

Ignoring melee, you gain 50% resistance to anything but:
-Hell Knights
-Cacodemons
-Arachnotrons
-Former Commandos
-Barons of hell
-Nightmare Imps
-Nightmare Cacodemons
-Plasma shotgun elite shotgun guys
-Laser rifle elite chaingun guys
-Tristar Blaster plasmarifle guys (Hey, I know it's not doom terminology, sue me!)
-Shamblers
-Bruiser Brothers
-Arena Masters (lol)
-Spider Masterminds.

Seems like a big list? No, not really, considering the actual spawning of these guys and the difficulty you have taking out most of them. Keep in mind that even deep into Ao100 most big packs are something like a Cyberdemon + VVMMRRB. And you get all this for nothing. For free. So stop your whining!

--

Secondly, you gain the ability to attack with a weapon in the offhand and equipped slots at once, for half the time each, as long as they're both knives.

And no, knives arn't for pansies. Let's say you have 2 chainswords (which is pretty reasonable on Ao100, PPBB) and Brute 3. That means that you're doing (8d2+9)x2 damage every 0.85s with just MMB + 1 rank in brute, which averages out to be 21 damage per knife for 42 damage per hit. Suddenly it doesn't seem so pansy anymore, right?

Oh, but I forgot that we're a Technician, so we have access to Whizkid as a basic trait, which means there's really no excuse to grab it gotta go fast. And we're on Ao100, so basic mods arn't really a problem. Let's power mod those knives - suddenly we're doing (8d3+9)x2 for 25/50 damage per hit average.

And we're also on Ao100, which means it isn't really ridiculous to plan for something like 15 traits at the very least.

WK-> WK-> HR-> HR-> DM-> Fin-> Bru-> Bru -> MBm-> Bru-> Fin/Jug-> Jug/Fin-> Bru-> Bru-> Fin

So now you're doing some kind of crazy (8d3+15)x2, which is 31/62 at 0.7 seconds. You'll be twohitting anything that's not a boss monster or a nightmare arch-vile.

And if you happen upon a berserk pack you essentially start ripping and tearing.

Oh, and one last thing - The dragonslayer counts as a blade for MMB. Have fun with that! :)
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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #875 on: October 15, 2013, 20:18 »

Don't kill the newbie with overkill, Aki.  =)

That said, if anything, melee builds are actually pretty overpowered, especially so when you are not in a challenge that limits yourself to using only melee weapons.

If you are running into ammo issues, I believe it's because you are carrying too many varieties of secondary weapons and/or "useless junk".  You don't really need multiple pistols, nor should you carry pistols + chainguns + shotguns + rocket launchers + plasma rifles.  Just pick 2 to 3 of the lot -- one wall breecher, one "scouter" and one mid/long range plinker.  You should also consider moving in for the kill, given that you are specialising in melee after all.

Most weapons need additional traits to make them truly shine, so don't expect to be killing things with say the combat shotgun when you are on MBm.  You should really consider making more use of your master trait.

If you are not comfortable with a hybrid approach of using ranged weapons to scout and melee to kill, perhaps you should try a different build.  Some master traits are very overpowered, but only if you exploit them to the fullest.  If not, you'll just get YASD.
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #876 on: October 15, 2013, 20:59 »

Don't kill the newbie with overkill, Aki.  =)

Haha, i'll try not to in future @_@

Quote
That said, if anything, melee builds are actually pretty overpowered, especially so when you are not in a challenge that limits yourself to using only melee weapons.

I'd say that the further the game goes on, the better melee gets. For example, the first few levels with melee are "hell". After you get the chainsaw it's not bad if you have some perks in brute, but then you actually have to close the gap to your enemies - which can get you shot up pretty bad - and then actually melee them and deal with their melee damage. After you get the LS or Scythe you can go around with your gibstick and berserking and stuff like that, but you still need to be careful - berserk isn't the invulnerability globe it once used to be, even with a good set of armor you'll find your hp drain really quickly against an archvile pack if you charge straight in. I think it would be overpowered if berserk was any more potent, but considering the amount of skill you need with it along with the investment, I don't think it is.

That's from a UV/N! perspective though, where you start encountering cacodemons and hell knights on dlevel 3. On HNTR and HMP I don't think you face anything worse then a demon until the Anomaly, and by then you'll probably be something like level 6-8 making the balance a little wonkier.

Quote
If you are not comfortable with a hybrid approach of using ranged weapons to scout and melee to kill, perhaps you should try a different build.  Some master traits are very overpowered, but only if you exploit them to the fullest.  If not, you'll just get YASD.

And that can pretty much sum up melee builds in general too - otherwise, AoB wouldn't be such a hard challenge :p
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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #877 on: October 15, 2013, 21:29 »

So I just did my second run on Ao100 as a Scout with MBm. Levels 1-60 weren't too bad, but at some point during 60s, things became much harder. I died on level 74 after using an emergency phase device which only landed me in more monsters. The thing is, I was stuck with a stupid chainsword the whole time because no chainsaws or other melee weapons aside from knives dropped (I had other weapons, of course, but ran into ammo issues).

Was I just really unlucky with the RNG, or do we really only get knives during Ao100? If that's the case, I'm questioning the potential of a melee build.

60+ floors without seeing a Butcher's Cleaver? That ain't right.
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #878 on: October 15, 2013, 21:44 »

60+ floors without seeing a Butcher's Cleaver? That ain't right.

Seems pretty right to me, I don't recall getting a cleaver in a few Ao100 games i've played and certainly not in quite a few regular wins i've done. It's all luck.
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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #879 on: October 15, 2013, 22:13 »

Seems pretty right to me, I don't recall getting a cleaver in a few Ao100 games i've played and certainly not in quite a few regular wins i've done. It's all luck.

Naw, that ain't right. I've always found a Cleaver within the first half of 100 runs.
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #880 on: October 16, 2013, 01:06 »

Naw, that ain't right. I've always found a Cleaver within the first half of 100 runs.

But as I said, it's all luck - despite being able to appear even on dlevel 1, the cleaver has a weight of 2 - twice that of the dragonslayer. So past dlevel 16, you should be seeing 2 cleavers per dragonslayer.

And i've yet to see a dragonslayer.
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White Rider

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #881 on: October 16, 2013, 01:26 »

But as I said, it's all luck - despite being able to appear even on dlevel 1, the cleaver has a weight of 2 - twice that of the dragonslayer. So past dlevel 16, you should be seeing 2 cleavers per dragonslayer.

And i've yet to see a dragonslayer.

YOU haven't seen a dragonslayer yet, but I have. And cleavers early on. Like all the damn time.

But yes anyway in regards to the original question, dual-wielding chainswords are sometimes the best you can do since you can't rely on the chainsaw spawning on 100 runs, just raise Brute to 5 once you get past XL 12 and throw in some Hellrunner and other support traits. Use your traits and don't always rely on gear and mod pack drops.
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #882 on: October 16, 2013, 01:31 »

YOU haven't seen a dragonslayer yet, but I have. And cleavers early on. Like all the damn time.

But yes anyway in regards to the original question, dual-wielding chainswords are sometimes the best you can do since you can't rely on the chainsaw spawning on 100 runs, just raise Brute to 5 once you get past XL 12 and throw in some Hellrunner and other support traits. Use your traits and don't always rely on gear and mod pack drops.

This is exactly what i'm trying to say though! It's all luck based! >_<
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Out0fAmmo

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #883 on: October 16, 2013, 01:38 »

I would've posted the mortem, but the file's on another comp that I can't access right now. Maybe I messed up the abbreviation, but I was playing Blademaster, not Malicious Blades. I had an assault shotgun (p) with about 100 shells, a rocket launcher with 2 rocket boxes, and a VBFG 9000 that I loaded up with cells on the ground. Obviously, the shotgun became useless against armored enemies from a distance. For traits, I had HR 3, Bru 5, Int 2, WK 2, DM, Ber, Fin 2, Iro 2. I'll just have to find that mortem and post it.

 The issue became getting stuck on open levels with no cover and no way to close the distance against ranged enemies without taking hits. I had Dodgemaster, and i did my best to zigzag, but I was still taking tons of hits in the later levels from mancubi and such. Eventually I had just burned through my medpacks and only had a few phase devices. Never saw a Cleaver, or Dragonslayer, and no chainsaw mean no ripper. 8d2 all the way.

I'll probably just run a few normal games or other challenges and come back to it later.
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Aki

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Re: Quick questions thread!
« Reply #884 on: October 16, 2013, 01:43 »

I would've posted the mortem, but the file's on another comp that I can't access right now. Maybe I messed up the abbreviation, but I was playing Blademaster, not Malicious Blades. I had an assault shotgun (p) with about 100 shells, a rocket launcher with 2 rocket boxes, and a VBFG 9000 that I loaded up with cells on the ground. Obviously, the shotgun became useless against armored enemies from a distance. For traits, I had HR 3, Bru 5, Int 2, WK 2, DM, Ber, Fin 2, Iro 2. I'll just have to find that mortem and post it.

 The issue became getting stuck on open levels with no cover and no way to close the distance against ranged enemies without taking hits. I had Dodgemaster, and i did my best to zigzag, but I was still taking tons of hits in the later levels from mancubi and such. Eventually I had just burned through my medpacks and only had a few phase devices. Never saw a Cleaver, or Dragonslayer, and no chainsaw mean no ripper. 8d2 all the way.

I'll probably just run a few normal games or other challenges and come back to it later.

Yup, I saw that you posted Blademaster - my response was to Eyro's comment about needing to buff melee, in which I pointed to MMB.
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