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Author Topic: Hello (and suggestions)  (Read 13911 times)

Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2008, 05:14 »

Spoken like a true philospher. Lighten up. ;)
In that case, I am glad to meet another one. :)

Fortunately a standard FOV algorithm is all you need to make static light sources dynamic.

I recently think of roguelike that would be called Assassin. It would have raher new or rare features: dynamic lighting system, advanced stealth (cover and camuflage) and on sound/noise system (part of stealth), and directed field of vision (180 degrees). I already thought about mechanics in detailed way and it would make very big post to explained everything, and even bigger if I explain detailed mechanics/algorithms, so I will try just point out few things generaly to make it short.

Character could move in three modes: srtaight, stalking and prone. Character walking speed would corespond to these. Character could also run, but that would be useful in certain situatons since it would be least stealthy mode (noise) and character would become tired faster. Walking would be most optimal for exploration/ and stealthy travel (until you spot something) and also would not require much effort (tire character). Stalking would be as silent as moving prone. Slower than walking, but much more silent and it would also make character smaller, less visible, and allows to hide behind lower covers (for example stalking behind some crate would cover character, while standing he could be partly visible). Stalking would tire character also quite fast. Prone mode would be as silent as stalking, but much slower. It would be useful to hide behind much smaller things, where stalking/crouching steel makes you partialy visible. Height of cover/character/monster would be represented by its brightness. Very bright things, also marked in capital letters would mean it is quite high, while darker are lower (so character's brightness would change together while he is walking/crouching/ducking). Pallete would have two colors with many grades. One would be used for enviroment to reprsent light (dynamic lighting system) the other for objects/monsters (to represent how high things are). With one button player could change display to show everything in light mode if he needs to see how visible things are (then everything would be shaded in color of light to represent how much they are affected by it). There could be also 1 or 2 colors reserved for info screen. Generaly, if monster is some distant from object (cover) then area behind the objects offer some cover. The higher the monster is, and the lower the object is, makes space behind object lose cover gradualy much quicker. If the monster is lower than object, area blocked by object and behind it would have full cover offered by the object, and could even rise further from the object. This would all work with height of character (so what mode he is in). It is not very clear explanation so I'll show example of what I mean.
# -this is object and has height of 6
@ -character stalking, height of 5
M -big monster, height of 9

Situation looks like this:
@.....#...M

Numbers show cover value of the area versus the monster
@44556#000M    (Character[5] is visible partialy, monster has chance to notice character, now light plays role and monsters perception, while sound is factor all the time. It shows more or less how it would work)

If monster was lower[5] it could look like this:

@77766#000m  (Character[5] not visible. If he walks straight[8] he again could be noticed, and more likely -heard)

Beside that character would have directed field of view (180 degree, assassin is quite aware) which could rotate in 8 directions normally. Character would rotate field of view automatically in moving direction, or while holding key(shift) he could move keeping current view direction. Single shift tap followed with direction would allow to rotate vision without moving.
Monster would have their ruts and character could observe them for a while to see patern in moving/patroling. They could also make unexpected movements, especially if alerted. They would also have their looking direction, which would determine if they can see character at all atm. This could be represented by - with color and shade of overlapped tile (to display if there is object at the place, or free space), pointing away from monster: like this

 -M looking left, M- looking right
M  
   \    looking south/east, etc.

Visibility of character would be determined by his height and by light intensity of the tile he is in. However, background cover would also be important. For example if character is in dark space but there is light source/brighter wall behind him (in straight line from a monster) then, instead of current darkness of a tile character is in, the light value of the wall/brightest tile behind character would be used (whichever is brighter) because monster could see outiline of the character clearly. So for stealth player would have to take the account current cover and background cover.
Sound factor would play important role. This could be represented by radar:
Code: [Select]
             
  \ | /
  - * -
  / | \
If character hear steps from some direction then it would appear in radar, and brightness would represent how loud/close they are. If there are more steps, they would also appear (up to three -more than that sound is too mixed to distinguish) in order from loudest to most quiet/distant (radiating from the center on of the radar), like this:
Code: [Select]
             
    *
    *
  \ | /
  - * - *
  / | \
Two step sounds from the north, one form the east. These would be acompanied be real sounds(samples/waves) with loudness coresponding to radar.
Brightness of star in the middle would show loudness of your own steps (which could also be acompanied with sample/wave so you can actually hear how silent you are, and if you misstep you will notice that without looking at the radar). If you hear some heavy steps with clining of metal then it could mean some heavy armored person/guard is in the area, and thatcould be represented by inverted star (beside wave).
Sound in dungeon actually echoes from walls. So if you are inside room with just one door in the north wall, you would hear all sounds coming from the north. Similary if you stand in corridor you would hear sounds coming from two alternate direction. This can be easily done by taking straight possible walking line to the source of sound: direction on radar would corespond to direction of last tile of the line when it is touching you (of course the line would not be visible to a player because character can't see the movement of the air/sound). Like this.
Code: [Select]
###########
M-----\....
######|####
#.....|...#
#.....|...#
#.....@...#
#.........#
###########
Hear sound comes from the north.

Code: [Select]
###########
M-----\....
######|####
#......\..#
#.......\.#
#........@#
#.........#
###########
Here sound comes from north-west.

If you hear runing steps, it could appear with diferent sign on radar (and runing steps sample/wave), and would generaly be louder.
As assassin, you take adventage of stealth. For example. If you manage to stalk behind ogre, you have your chance (backstab) but you need to stand straight to reach its neck (heart is to deep to reach from behind..8/ ). Generally, there would be different ways for different monsters. You would have to monitor two things closely: health, and stamina. Health because it would be hard to heal in this game, stamina because it greatly reduces you combat/stalking/runing effectivness. You could have easier time slaying one ot two monsters, but if more appears you would be already tired and that could be dangerous. You would also run slower. Stalking too long would also tire you up too much which could be dangerous in case of unsuccesful ambush. So you would have to find someplaces ocassionaly and rest a bit after some events. When tired you could hear your heavy breath every few turns, becoming louder, faster and appearing more often if you get more and more tired. This at some point could also be acompanied with sample/wave of you double heart beat every step (PUM-pum), which would become louder and Pup-pum faster the more tired/wounded you are.
If monsters notice something about you/hear something they may be alerted a little and they will go to investigate. If they become aware of you (see clearly/combat) they become very alerted and tend to run and shout things when they see other of their kind (sample/wave), and the other becomes alerted similary, and that could spread (so it sometimes would be better to take out alerted monster instead running). Alertness level of a monster with cool down slowly with time, if they do not notice anything that could rise it again. Slowly they would return to their normal actions. If you run from monster it would go shortest path to the tile it last saw you, than would go randomly in direction that was not in his vision when you disappeared.
Generally dynamic light, sounds of steps, monster mumbling and shouting (ununderstandable), breath, heartbeat and your own steps could create unique atmosphere that you could hear and see, if made wisely. More likely if you add tactical play of stealth and awarness (watching and knowing what monsters do), and quick and possibly spectacular combat system.
Character would stalk behind covers, peek and watch others, take right moment to go to other place and close up the target, seeking dark places and avoiding the light, while being aware of steps coming from some other direction, and looking here and there ocasionly seeking stationary threat, etc.
Assassin would also heavily depent on whole sort of proffesion gadgets, ranging from simple stone to distract others, to blowtubes with poisoned needles, picklock tools, flashbombs to to make monsters fight blind for a moment or to help you run, things to take out light, alchemy stuff etc. Many ideas can go here.
I can't write this actually, and was thinking maybe of someone who would like to co-op if is interested to make such game together. I used to write on different computers than PC so I could present algorithms, more or less.
Game background and outlook is completely different, open story.

Anyway, I'm interested in anyones creative suggestions and what you think.

EDIT:
I forgot some things. Main one is:
The way of stalking.
When stalking animals in our world (so, creatures in roguelike) you have to be aware of few things. First, animals rather don't recognize your look, instead they notice movement. So, when stalking something it suddenly looks in your direction and if you immediately freeze then it has small chance to notice you because you will appear just as part of landscape. Any movement however will attract animals attention and it will focus on you until it will figure out what you are, which generally means it will flee. If you wait until animal looks away from you then you may continue stalking and repeat this procedure. Even if you freeze but your shape has some unnatural color it may also raise attention because you will appear as some strange colored object in the landscape.. Of course senses and ability to recognize vary per species. In dungeon case it works similar. When ogre looks in your direction and you freeze, you may appear just as one of many shadow and will not get any attention. However if you continue moving then this will more likely be noticed by ogre and it will come to investigate.
In this game it would work the same way. If you stalk monster and it looks in your direction , you better stop moving and wait until it looks away. While remaining motionless is rather easy while standing or being prone, it requires strength and skill to freeze for longer time in stalking position. After time, being in some weird position that you were forced to freeze, may make you shift to one side or cause some uncontrolled movement of tensed muscles and this slight thing may catch attention of the observer. Your camouflage also would be important, so you would not attract attention as some strange looking object inside dungeon rooms.
Quietness, speed of stalking and ability to stay motionless would be represented by Stalking skill. Time in which you can remain motionless in stalking position and stamina would be represented by Stamina/Fitness skill.
Some others problems worth to mention:
If there is monster looking in one direction and there is bigger monster directly behind him looking into direction in which smaller is, like this:
Code: [Select]
#####
.Og-.
#####
(goblin looking east, and ogre also looking east, problem is with displaying direction ogre is looking)

then it could be represented by inverting tile with small monster. It would retain its color, but background color would have color and shade of the light in this tile (just as if suddenly area under the goblin where lightened up by the light coming from ogre eyes.. lol:)

In case when monster is facing wall, I think there is no need to mark it because monster is not looking anywhere else, like this:
Code: [Select]
#####
..O..
.....
(whatever he is doing..ehm)

That's all what I recall for now.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 05:22 by Daqin »
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Newts Revenge

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2008, 12:57 »

I didn't use 3d term: lighting system, but rather called it light-system which describes what I ment. Would you reply If I used different word (for example: brightness adjusting), so it couldn't conjure anything you could compare to, and judge ? What you find ridiculous about it ? I rather find it inspiring. Maybe, actually, ridiculous was your thought assuming that it was in attempt of imitation something from 'bigger screen', because name matches.. So you are laughing/smiling at your own thoughts and announce it to everyone (who can read btwn the lines), because you actually believe that situation is exactly as it looks in your mind, which gives you motivation to speak and point silly things out. And since this idea/judgment was created in your mind, it is clear it is conditioned to create silly looking things which you project on outside objects, and by doing so you only speak about your tendencies and way of seeing world. None of this view has actually anything to do with what is going on (in other peoples minds) and doesn't describe anything that is happening. It is in your mind only. Notice how your view changes when affected by condition to create judgment/compare.

Chill, mate. You are also reading (or mis-reading) too much into my specific wording. There is a big difference between saying something is plain "ridiculous" and "a bit ridiculous", and I didn't mean to ridicule your ideas, merely point out a fundamental contradiction which I noticed at that point. Perhaps I was too brief and flippant.

We were talking about a Roguelike game, and the minimalist, functional graphics of Roguelikes is one of their main defining features. To me, the point of a Roguelike is that the creative energy of the maker(s) is focused on the gameplay and having a complex "inner" game world, without the drain on creative resources of producing a sophisticated "outer" representation, namely graphics and sound. Therefore, I think it's fair to say that to spend much creative energy on talking about or making purely cosmetic enhancements to a roguelike "defeats the purpose" of the game using the roguelike form to begin with.

Up to the point where you talked about lighting up an area with gunfire, the system you were describing seemed to be intended as a purely cosmetic enhancement that would only make tiles lighter or darker. Certainly the mockup you drew shows such a system. It would be quite different to talk about changing the visibility of tiles according to the light on them, which is not purely cosmetic, and entirely within the "spirit of the roguelike" as I see it.

Of course you are right that roguelikes often have stuff added to them now, such as optional tilesets, or sound and music, which are there only to provide "atmosphere" and are purely cosmetic. It's not like Roguelikes can't have enhancements added to them, and if the light gradient system that you drew in your picture were possible I'm sure it would add atmosphere to AliensRL too, as I said. If AliensRL had tileset support then it might be worth implementing a set of tiles that mimic the ASCII graphics but provide a greater range of colours in order to implement shading like that in your mockup; it would be much less effort than a set of proper artwork.

The idea of a roguelike system where the visibility of a tile depends on the light from many possible sources, not just one source centred on the player is an interesting one.

I haven't read your post about "Assassin" yet, it's long and I have to log off now for Earth Hour...
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 01:12 »

Chill, mate.

There is nothing to chill. I said what I said. Deal with that, not with my supposed emotions. Whatever emotions may be, I use reason anyway. So what you got from me is straight point and respect. If it were not those than I would play around concealing what I actually think. In same manner, I don't care about your emotions. These are hard to control and I won't interfere with these. They are not my business and are your personal thing.

Quote
You are also reading (or mis-reading) too much into my specific wording. There is a big difference between saying something is plain "ridiculous" and "a bit ridiculous", and I didn't mean to ridicule your ideas, merely point out a fundamental contradiction which I noticed at that point. Perhaps I was too brief and flippant.

There is no difference in words to me. The only difference is in meaning behind. I didn't think you attempted to ridiculous anything. I simply pointed out your way of thinking. You can't ridicule me. This always will be your point of view.

Quote
We were talking about a Roguelike game, and the minimalist, functional graphics of Roguelikes is one of their main defining features. To me, the point of a Roguelike is that the creative energy of the maker(s) is focused on the gameplay and having a complex "inner" game world, without the drain on creative resources of producing a sophisticated "outer" representation, namely graphics and sound. Therefore, I think it's fair to say that to spend much creative energy on talking about or making purely cosmetic enhancements to a roguelike "defeats the purpose" of the game using the roguelike form to begin with.

Yes, to You. Are there any restrictions on roguelikes ? If someone makes some, it doesn't concern anyone.

Quote
Up to the point where you talked about lighting up an area with gunfire, the system you were describing seemed to be intended as a purely cosmetic enhancement that would only make tiles lighter or darker. Certainly the mockup you drew shows such a system. It would be quite different to talk about changing the visibility of tiles according to the light on them, which is not purely cosmetic, and entirely within the "spirit of the roguelike" as I see it.

Whatever. If you are ready only for cosmetic enhancements then it is up to you.

Quote
Of course you are right that roguelikes often have stuff added to them now, such as optional tilesets, or sound and music, which are there only to provide "atmosphere" and are purely cosmetic. It's not like Roguelikes can't have enhancements added to them, and if the light gradient system that you drew in your picture were possible I'm sure it would add atmosphere to AliensRL too, as I said. If AliensRL had tileset support then it might be worth implementing a set of tiles that mimic the ASCII graphics but provide a greater range of colours in order to implement shading like that in your mockup; it would be much less effort than a set of proper artwork.

Again, if you want things without effort it is no problem to me.

Quote
The idea of a roguelike system where the visibility of a tile depends on the light from many possible sources, not just one source centred on the player is an interesting one.

Changing your mind ?

Quote
I haven't read your post about "Assassin" yet, it's long and I have to log off now for Earth Hour...

I forgot/missed some things to mention there. I will add it now.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 05:28 by Daqin »
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Newts Revenge

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2008, 08:30 »


There is nothing to chill. I said what I said. Deal with that, not with my supposed emotions. Whatever emotions may be, I use reason anyway. So what you got from me is straight point and respect.


Fine. I also said what I said. You assert that it is a problem with my way of thinking if I read meaning into your words which you didn't mean to put there. That is a ridiculous assertion, because how am I supposed to know what you are thinking, except through your words? But I'm happy to let that stand. By the same reasoning, it is also a problem with your way of thinking if you misinterpret what I say. You deal with it. One attempt to explain myself more clearly to you is all you get.

To summarise the facts (feel free to dispute them, but don't expect a response):
-Your shaded lighting scheme won't work, due to technical limitations.
-Your shaded lighting scheme amounts to a crude imitation in roguelike form of what radiance systems in CGI do, which is to make objects lighter or darker according to the amount of light that is supposed to be reflected from them. That's what you drew in your picture and described in the first part of your post afterwards. Maybe that's not what you had in your mind, but that's what was in your words, and we can't read your mind.
-Your shaded lighting scheme is a cosmetic enhancement, albeit a nice one.
-I think it is somewhat pointless to concentrate on cosmetic enhancements to a roguelike. You're entitled to your own opinion on the matter.

The ideas you put forward in your "assassin" post are much more interesting, and similar to something I am working on.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 08:38 by Newts Revenge »
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Vestin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2008, 09:37 »

There is no difference in words to me. The only difference is in meaning behind. I didn't think you attempted to ridiculous anything. I simply pointed out your way of thinking.
Your psychic abilities amuse me ;)... Or they would - if you didn't contradict yourself so evidently. You understand that words have different meanings, yet are somehow certain that your interpretation is the correct one... even if the author says that it isn't.
Either show a little bit more humility or lighten up. Having your head so far up your own ass doesn't ease the conversation.

Quote from: Daqin
You can't ridicule me. This always will be your point of view.
I know I'm gonna be mean but... hell - I already am ;P.
If you really think that talking about emotions has no point - WTF was that supposed to mean ? Besides - who cares about having you ridiculed or not ? You just show a bit o insecurity by mentioning it, that's all you've gained.

Quote from: Daqin
Quote
(...) To me, the point of a Roguelike is (...)
Yes, to You. Are there any restrictions on roguelikes ? If someone makes some, it doesn't concern anyone.
He says: "IMO". You say: "I don't care about your opinion". Why the hell would anyone care about what YOU think if you have absolutely no respect for others ?

As for the whole point - there are things that people ussually assume when we say "roguelike". You may have an idea for a game that incorporates some elements of the genre but doesn't include some other (also considered "core elements") - fine. Just don't insist on calling it a standart roguelike on one hand... and DON'T tell us that you understand the term better then anyone else... or that there is nothing in common when people say "roguelike" because they somehow manage to understand what that means... excluding you, I guess.


Quote from: Daqin
Quote
Up to the point where you talked about lighting up an area with gunfire, the system you were describing seemed to be intended as a purely cosmetic enhancement that would only make tiles lighter or darker. Certainly the mockup you drew shows such a system. It would be quite different to talk about changing the visibility of tiles according to the light on them, which is not purely cosmetic, and entirely within the "spirit of the roguelike" as I see it.

Whatever. (...)
OMG... A single-worded summary of how much you care... I'm speachless.


Quote from: Daqin
Quote
(...)it would be much less effort than a set of proper artwork.

Again, if you want things without effort it is no problem to me.
Missing the whole point... AGAIN. Roguelikes with graphics are like a Resident Evil with aliens instead of zombies. That is: if you want something different... look elsewhere. I dunno - play Thief, Oblivion or Incubation. There are a lot of games with graphics.
Seriously - programming all the stuff you've described seems pointless - it's far easier to do all of this in a graphical environment, where there are no needs to find makeshift solutions to obvious limitations.
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2008, 12:29 »

There is nothing to chill. I said what I said. Deal with that, not with my supposed emotions. Whatever emotions may be, I use reason anyway.

Fine. I also said what I said. You assert that it is a problem with my way of thinking if I read meaning into your words which you didn't mean to put there. That is a ridiculous assertion, because how am I supposed to know what you are thinking, except through your words? But I'm happy to let that stand. By the same reasoning, it is also a problem with your way of thinking if you misinterpret what I say. You deal with it. One attempt to explain myself more clearly to you is all you get.

I said deal with it, not with me.

There is no difference in words to me. The only difference is in meaning behind. I didn't think you attempted to ridiculous anything. I simply pointed out your way of thinking.
Your psychic abilities amuse me ;)...

Very well.

Quote from: Vestin
Or they would - if you didn't contradict yourself so evidently. You understand that words have different meanings,

I didn't say words have different meaning. I spoke about meaning behind them. What you mean you can say by many words. You can use same words when you mean something else.

Quote from: Vestin
yet are somehow certain that your interpretation is the correct one... even if the author says that it isn't.

I know what I mean when I speak.

Quote from: Vestin
Either show a little bit more humility or lighten up. Having your head so far up your own ass doesn't ease the conversation.

If you don't know what others mean when speak to you, you may interpret it like you wish. If you can however, you would react to what you see without concern of how for up your ass others see your head.

Quote from: Vestin
Quote from: Daqin
You can't ridicule me. This always will be your point of view.
I know I'm gonna be mean but... hell - I already am ;P.
If you really think that talking about emotions has no point - WTF was that supposed to mean ? Besides - who cares about having you ridiculed or not ? You just show a bit o insecurity by mentioning it, that's all you've gained.

Did I say it has no point? I said it can't affect me. Because it can't. What is inside your head has nothing to do with me, whatever picture it may be. It is just that, just there. I, however, may have something to do with that picture.

Quote from: Vestin
Quote from: Daqin
Quote
(...) To me, the point of a Roguelike is (...)
Yes, to You. Are there any restrictions on roguelikes ? If someone makes some, it doesn't concern anyone.
He says: "IMO". You say: "I don't care about your opinion". Why the hell would anyone care about what YOU think if you have absolutely no respect for others ?

I am interested in your opinion. I am. I am not interested in restrictions you put on me. I respect your point of view. I don't care about the view you want to put in me.
I have my point of view, and I don't care if someone has the same. It has nothing to do with me and doesn't concern me. If someone is interested in my point of view, I like to share it, just like I am interested in yours, if you wish to share it. I don't force my view on anyone, and don't accept someone's forcing on me.

Quote from: Vestin
As for the whole point - there are things that people ussually assume when we say "roguelike". You may have an idea for a game that incorporates some elements of the genre but doesn't include some other (also considered "core elements") - fine. Just don't insist on calling it a standart roguelike on one hand... and DON'T tell us that you understand the term better then anyone else... or that there is nothing in common when people say "roguelike" because they somehow manage to understand what that means... excluding you, I guess.

As for me, roguelikes are ASCII. You may connect it with whatever else. I don't care about standard or whatever mark it may have. I am interested in content, not the box. I don't understand them better than anyone else because I don't know what you mean by that. What is to understand ? I can only have experience of a game, that's it. I didn't say they have nothing in common. This is however may be different for every individual. You know better what is special for you about these games, no one will tell you that.

Quote from: Vestin
Quote from: Daqin
Quote
Up to the point where you talked about lighting up an area with gunfire, the system you were describing seemed to be intended as a purely cosmetic enhancement that would only make tiles lighter or darker. Certainly the mockup you drew shows such a system. It would be quite different to talk about changing the visibility of tiles according to the light on them, which is not purely cosmetic, and entirely within the "spirit of the roguelike" as I see it.

Whatever. (...)
OMG... A single-worded summary of how much you care... I'm speachless.
Why you demand from me to care? Do I tell you to do that ? And I mean exactly that: Whatever.., these words may sum up, evaluate or categorize whatever I did, but it is just like 'whatever' for the need for these things.

Quote from: Vestin
Quote from: Daqin
Quote
(...)it would be much less effort than a set of proper artwork.

Again, if you want things without effort it is no problem to me.
Missing the whole point...

I didn't. I did not reply to particular words but to whole in general, which obviously displayed interest in what way and with what priority the game should be done.

Quote from: Vestin
AGAIN. Roguelikes with graphics are like a Resident Evil with aliens instead of zombies. That is: if you want something different... look elsewhere. I dunno - play Thief, Oblivion or Incubation. There are a lot of games with graphics.
Seriously - programming all the stuff you've described seems pointless - it's far easier to do all of this in a graphical environment, where there are no needs to find makeshift solutions to obvious limitations.
if you don't like you don't have to play it, or even discuss it. I would play it. Whoever wants would play it. If there are those who would, why to say it is pointless? If you are not interested just skip it, why you want to break it?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 13:21 by Daqin »
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Rabiat

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2008, 15:43 »

Daqin, I must say I respect your efforts to come up with original ideas and your attempts to put them to words. I for one can empathise.

That being said, you practice Borg logic with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm, and bear striking resemblance to a barrel in DoomRL; nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode - with a four tile blast radius. Please, accept the language barrier, and deal with the Asperger's. You either are unaware of, or seriously underestimate, the amount of thought others have gone through before you when it comes to roguelike development.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2008, 23:18 »

Chill out, all of you :).

I really appreciate the technical part of this discussion, but the flame one is getting funny :P
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2008, 00:13 »

Daqin, I must say I respect your efforts to come up with original ideas and your attempts to put them to words. I for one can empathise.

That being said, you practice Borg logic with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm, and bear striking resemblance to a barrel in DoomRL; nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode - with a four tile blast radius. Please, accept the language barrier, and deal with the Asperger's. You either are unaware of, or seriously underestimate, the amount of thought others have gone through before you when it comes to roguelike development.


Thanks for respect. However I do not put effort in these. I do not wish to come up with idea. I simply say it when it comes to my mind and I like to translate it to into words to share and to see how would it work.

I do not practice that logic you mentioned, I don't know it, so maybe it may look for you this way. My inability or ability you presume on yours already judgments which you believe are correct, what naturally means I am mistaken, because views are different. That is weird that you think I sit and wait for someone to hit me if I start subject with neutral idea and do not intent to get hit by anything. If you actually pay attention to details you can discover some things. All you can notice from some people is attempt to grant you or deny your own right for your own games/ideas. That is strange because how can someone control or get credit for something that didn't come from him and what you already have? And what is purpose of that?
Anyway, if something said here by anyone can be considered 'flaming' I am not responsible for their actions.

EDIT:
..with a painful inability to distinguish honesty from sarcasm,
I know what you mean by honesty and sarcasm. I however have different view on what these actually are.

nobody intentionally hits you, but you're just sitting there waiting for an excuse to explode
I know now, that I do some mistake, but that is not that. And I seem to repeat that mistake because I haven't found the alternative yet. However your insight already pointed me direction, and I am very thankful for that (Daqin bows gracefully).

Please, accept the language barrier,
It is not really barrier. However I did other mistake at some point. While being aware of what I am dealing with I skipped the content (without paying attention) going straight into expected outcome, which, in this way, I actually created/let it come. So, by seeing intended outcome I went straight there as if there was no other possibility, missing that I can direct it into different result/path. (that's how I can explain that)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 04:07 by Daqin »
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Newts Revenge

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2008, 05:47 »

I said deal with it, not with me.

As you wish:

I didn't use 3d term: lighting system, but rather called it light-system which describes what I ment. (...) Maybe, actually, ridiculous was your thought assuming that it was in attempt of imitation something from 'bigger screen', because name matches..

No, I don't think so, because that's what you described. Areas lighting up and barrels casting shadows with gunfire? You were talking about an FPS, whether you meant to or not.

Let's talk instead about changing the boolean visibility of a tile according to how much light is falling on it. That is, we are not just changing its brightness, we are changing whether it is "visible" or "outside vision". Aliens RL already uses this principle in a limited way to do the "dark" environment of the storage tower, by decreasing the vision radius. But we could take it further than that and generally calculate for every tile not just whether it is visible from the player's position, but if there is enough light falling on it from any nearby sources for them to actually see what is there. Thus in a dark area with a few lights, the player might have a large vision radius but still be unable to see most of their surroundings. (In fact, I think that somebody - possibly me - already suggested elsewhere the idea of having flare pickups in Aliens RL, which could be used to permanently light up areas in the storage tower.)

In fact we can make it a "fuzzy" boolean. If a tile is less than 100% lit, but greater than 0%, then the tile itself is drawn - in a darker colour, if possible - but there is a <100% chance of drawing any object at that location which the player has not already seen. That chance would depend on the amount of light, and also how easy the object is to see. Small and immobile objects (like pistol clips) would be much more difficult to see than large and mobile ones (like aliens). Light-emitting objects (such as, well, lights) are the easiest to see of all. In general: light, motion and size determine whether one thing is perceived by the visual senses of another. In a stealth-oriented game, this would all apply to the enemies as much as to the player.

Of course, this is all interesting as an intellectual exercise, but it needs to add gameplay to be worth doing (particularly since it will multiply the number of LOS tests that need to be done). In AliensRL, the player can't sneak up on the aliens, and the aliens already wait motionless until they are "seen" before they attack. This already means that in the dark environment of the storage tower they get to ambush the player, and if the player goes poking about in the corners of rooms looking for extra pistol clips then they might find an alien instead. As it stands there's not much benefit to having the system I describe above. It just introduces some extra randomness to the edges of the visible area, which is the player is not able to influence.

However, consider if the aliens are given a larger vision range than the player (at least in darkness) and if they only wait to be seen before advancing if the player is moving away from them. Now the player faces the possibility of entering a room through a door in the middle of one wall, moving into the room in one direction, and then finding that aliens have advanced behind them and are between them and the door. If they have flares, they can reduce this possibility by chucking a flare to one side of the room when they enter. In dark areas in general, assuming that flares are in plentiful supply, using a flare could save the player a lot of bullets. Of course, we don't need a full light-based visibility system to get this effect; we only need flares, and some minor changes to alien behaviour...
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2008, 23:02 »

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bfg9001

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2008, 14:42 »

This probably has already been suggested, but since this is a tactical RL of sorts, how about different ammo types, such as Armor Piercing rounds or Explosive Rounds (which increase armor piercing ability or damage, respectivley)? I could see this getting somewhat complicated, but it would be kinda' neat.
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Sachiko

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2008, 03:56 »

Piercing and Explosive rounds, huh? That is not as crazy as you think.

In fact, In AvP game, the marine's pistol can be loaded with normal and AP rounds. AP rounds are capable of splattering the heads of lesser aliens pretty quickly, and even put some hurt on praetorians, thanks to their capability to pierce almost all of their armor and exploding when it enters in the body.

The Pulse Rifle's grenade launcher can also be loaded with different kinds of grenades, like white phosphorum incendiary grenades, and even proximity mines.
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Dakin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2009, 15:57 »

I wonder of anyone's new or old thoughts on AssasinRL, if any. Kornel, would you be up for something like that ? Or anyone else ? Just wondering. Seems good project to me. Difficult however.
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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2009, 05:17 »

I would rather see piercing as a passive ability (If you get SoBx3 you can get AP (Armour piercing)). Each stage of AP increases the chance, that your bullets will pierce the enemy.
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