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[Thomas]

And I'm gonna brainstorm ideas for a little while to make DoomRL feel more like DooM and DooM 2 now that it's fresh in my mind.

It's been suggested so much before, but ministuns.
My idea for it is that chainguns make them stall for 0.1 seconds per hit, shotguns make them lose all progress unless you barely nick them (So they have to start the delay over again) and the chainsaw completely paralyses them, unless they're a boss or Arch-Vile.

A debriefing screen for each level? Gives kill count, item count and secret count (Levers pulled). Also how long the level took you in in-game seconds and minutes.

Have a small chance for the room with stairs to be specially made:

• Only one doorway in or out.
• Has a demon pack or a similar "Suprise, fucker!" enemy inside, like a pain elemental.
• Stairs are either square in the middle (If it's a big exit room) or up against the wall opposite the doorway (If it's a small exit room)
• Doorway is not brown (Possibly dark green?), says "Door - EXIT" when examined, and can't be shot down.

I'm pretty sure the sounds aren't the same in DoomRL and DooM 2. Revanent idle is different, for example.

The rocket launcher in DooM 2 is much more powerful than DoomRL's, at the expense of being very easy to kill yourself with.
I'm not quite sure how you could bring a "Dangerous to the user" element in to a roguelike though, considering you can think before firing.

Alt-Fire for plasma gun: Choose 3 targets to randomly split the shots between. DooM 2 quickly burned this technique in to my mind as a good emergency move.

Alternative to current shotguns:
Shotgun. If you pass a +1 accuracy roll, damage dropoff is reduced by 80%. This only applies to enemies that are on your green aiming line.
Combat Shotgun. If you pass a +3 accuracy roll, damage dropoff is nulled. This only applies to enemies that are on your green aiming line.
Double Shotgun. If you pass a -2 accuracy roll, damage dropoff is halved. This only applies to enemies that are on your green aiming line.

This makes shotguns a good alternative to the chaingun (Which they are, even at medium range in DooM 2), but keeps their AoE damage as low as it is right now.
However, this also makes Eagle Eye a staple trait for every single weapon (bar BFG), so I'd suggest removing it and making accuracy rise by 0.5 on levelup instead.

[Dervis]

It's been suggested so much before, but ministuns.
My idea for it is that chainguns make them stall for 0.1 seconds per hit, shotguns make them lose all progress unless you barely nick them (So they have to start the delay over again) and the chainsaw completely paralyses them, unless they're a boss or Arch-Vile.

I think chainguns are well where they are now.
I would propose another thing: Enemies having a favored weapon against them, for example:
Chaingun hits have a chance to stun Cacodemons.
Chainsaw have 100% accuracy against demons.
Shotguns do maximum damage against Mancubus/Arachnotron.
Whatever you can think that's fun but doesn't break game balance.

Have a small chance for the room with stairs to be specially made:

    * Only one doorway in or out.
    * Has a demon pack or a similar "Suprise, fucker!" enemy inside, like a pain elemental.
    * Stairs are either square in the middle (If it's a big exit room) or up against the wall opposite the doorway (If it's a small exit room)
    * Doorway is not brown (Possibly dark green?), says "Door - EXIT" when examined, and can't be shot down.

I think that would be too much work for a small change. Having every stair guarded by an out of depth monster would be fun though.

The rocket launcher in DooM 2 is much more powerful than DoomRL's

If anything i think it's the opposite.

About plasma-gun and shotguns: They have been significantly changed in the beta, so better to check them out before and see what you think.

[Thomas]

I think chainguns are well where they are now.
I would propose another thing: Enemies having a favored weapon against them, for example:
Chaingun hits have a chance to stun Cacodemons.
Chainsaw have 100% accuracy against demons.
Shotguns do maximum damage against Mancubus/Arachnotron.
Whatever you can think that's fun but doesn't break game balance.

A good idea.

I think that would be too much work for a small change. Having every stair guarded by an out of depth monster would be fun though.

I doubt it would be that much work. Just every now and again force the stairs to spawn in a vault with a green door.

If anything i think it's the opposite.

Ah, it does less damage but it fires very quickly and doesn't need reloading.

About plasma-gun and shotguns: They have been significantly changed in the beta, so better to check them out before and see what you think.

Plasma guns changed? Also shotguns only got a damage upgrade, my idea is a bit different.

[Dervis]

Plasma Guns have a 6-shot base and a new Alternate Fire. They're a bit weaker but don't burn through ammunition as fast as they did before.

Shotguns only had damage upgraded but from 6d3 to 8d3 is a 33% increase. I've tested the new shotguns +/- extensively.
Double Shotgun - it's more or less perfect now. Destructive at close range and kinda useless for long shots. A small increase on the mid range would be welcome though.
Combat Shotgun - Overpowered in my opinion. Does way too much damage at long range.
Shotgun - Better than it used to be but still not enough. I can't understand why make the shotgun perform worse than the combat shotgun shot per shot.

[raekuul]

...because the combat shotgun is supposed to be better than the regular shotgun shot-for-shot?

[Dervis]

I didn't explain myself properly.
Even if you use the Combat Shotgun like a regular shotgun: 1 shell -> shoot -> reload -> shoot -> reload, it is still clearly superior to a regular shotgun (it's more precise, has less range dissipation and reloads MUCH faster). I don't think that should be the case.

[Blade]

Debriefing - i'm for it. Kills/items/levers/time.

I like the ideas about shotguns. With one remark: double shooty had no direct hit bonus on long ranges in Doom 2. But regular shotty was kinda a sniper weapon if properly aimed. So i'm for lowering damage from Shotty and CS, but with granting them a chance, depending on accuracy, that they will have 80% of damage reduction removed. Only for direct hits, of course.

[Thomas]

I like the ideas about shotguns. With one remark: double shooty had no direct hit bonus on long ranges in Doom 2. But regular shotty was kinda a sniper weapon if properly aimed. So i'm for lowering damage from Shotty and CS, but with granting them a chance, depending on accuracy, that they will have 80% of damage reduction removed. Only for direct hits, of course.

I still think that the CS should have a slightly better effect because of its reduced spread. It'd be the shotgun you fall back on for long-range fighting. (Heck, I even do that with my current shotgun characters. DS with a CS prepared.)

I agree on the DS though. Maybe it could just get the beta damage upgrade and stay as a killing machine, but only at short range.

[Blade]

I still think that the CS should have a slightly better effect because of its reduced spread. It'd be the shotgun you fall back on for long-range fighting. (Heck, I even do that with my current shotgun characters. DS with a CS prepared.)

Ok. Then, i think, 60% for shotty, 80% for CS.

[Thomas]

Hm, some more ideas.

New level type:
Acid Bath
It's a normal grid level, like many of the early game levels, but most doors spawn with 8 tiles of acid surrounding them. Also rooms are likely to be filled with acid (The smaller the room, the more likely) and there are 3 times as many random acid pools. Pain Elementals and Cacodemons are much more likely to spawn in acid baths. You don't get any acid bath levels until midgame, just like hellish cities.
And its endgame equivilent: The LAVA BATH! You added envirosuits, give players a reason to pick them up!
Beta Tester stuff: Acid baths only have acid barrels, Lava baths only have napalm barrels.

Messages on enter: "I love the sizzling sound of acid on stone floors." or "This entire level looks like it's about to melt away..."

New vault variation:
Acid Vault
A vault with a small maze in it (Like the maze rooms in the original rogue, if you can remember that far back.) that is totally filled with acid, also cacodemons or pain elementals. Somewhere, tucked away in a dead end, is a megasphere and a lategame item, like red armor or plasma cells.
If lava vaults are also implemented, they'll probably have a megasphere, an invulnerability globe and a unique.

Message on enter: "I do believe that's the strong smell of acid." or "Somewhere... a powerful item cries out for help..."

EDIT: Oh, another level type! I'm on fire!

Hellish castle
A large, 3-square thick moat (of acid, of course.) with a bridge of normal floor tiles surrounds a huge building that takes up almost the entire map. You spawn on or near the bridge.
The castle is divided in to small rooms, much smaller than that of a normal level. The exit is often far away from the enterence to the castle, but there may be a back enterence if you're willing to wade through the moat.
Packs are very likely to spawn in castles, with rooms full of imps (with a hell knight leader) and demons being the norm.

Message on enter: "What ho? A demonic castle to besiege?" or "Wuzzat say on the front? 'Wolfenstein'?"

LAST EDIT, I SWEAR: You should get some sort of special bonus if you destroy over 50% of the wall tiles of a hellish castle. You must siege it! Bring the artillery!

[Melon]

I just can't wait for the Icon of Sin interpretation in DoomRL. Any thoughts on that?

[raekuul]

Bring rockets. Lotsa rockets.

[Frankosity]

I just can't wait for the Icon of Sin interpretation in DoomRL. Any thoughts on that?

You're in an arena-style level with respawning enemies, and have to blast through the marked wall to get to and destroy John Romero's Head.

[Melon]

I just can't wait for the Icon of Sin interpretation in DoomRL. Any thoughts on that?

You're in an arena-style level with respawning enemies, and have to blast through the marked wall to get to and destroy John Romero's Head.

Or maybe you have to run for levers (hurray for Hellrunner), press them and then shoot the shield generators. After the generators are down, you can shot and destroy the Icon of Sin.

[Blade]

We just need a monster with 100% dodge chance, so no direct-hit weapon will damage him. Only weapons with blast radius, such as rocket launcher (bfg won't work because you will fire out of your sight and it's won't damage a thing out there) will work. To make it impossible to reach the monster itself (you will see just a long tunnel, in which you need to fire) just place a teleporter at the entrance (indestructible teleportator). To make it impossible to just stay there and fire rocket after rocket we either need to spawn new monsters in the rooms that has direct view on that place, from which you can fire (it's a bad, brute-force way), or we need a scripts for the maps, which, after pressing the lever, would open the door at the end of the tunnel for limited time or until the first hit.

[Thomas]

Here's a little mockup I made.

You spawn at either of the 2 @s.
All teleporters lead to the X.
All levers (bar the one furthest to the left and the ones surrounding the elevator) are "destroy walls"
All walls are indestructable by anything other than the levers.
Both +s are envirosuits.
The top ^ is a berserk.
The bottom ^ is a megasphere.
The /// is an elevator. It appears as a wall until the player presses the leftmost switch.
Once that switch is pressed, the elevator is available to ride.
When you stand on the elevator, you must wait for about 5 seconds before shooting is possible.
While the elevator is moving, your dodge chance is increased to about 90%.
One second before the elevator reaches the top, you get a coloured "Okay, I'm lined up with the hole. Shoot now!" message.
Getting this message turns the ! from floor in to wall, allowing you to hit John Romero. But only for 1 second.
Once the elevator reaches the top, the 4 surrounding levers will reset it.

Code: [Select]

Hm. That's odd. Shouldn't there be a final boss somewhere around here? Suddenly
you hear a demonic sound: ".oremoR nhoJ ;em llik tsum uoy ,emag eht niw oT".
################################################################################
##.......#.......#...........................===========.....##................#
#.#.......#.......#..........................===========.....##................#
#..#.......#.&.....#.........................===========.....#*...............@#
#...#.......#.......#........................===========...^.##................#
#....#.......#.......#.......................===========.....##................#
#.....#.......#.......#......................===========.....###################
#.....#.......#.......#......................===========.....###################
#.....#.......#.......#......................=====&=====.....###################
#.....#.......#.......#......................====///====.+..*###################
#&....#.......#.......#......X...............===&///&===....*....!........######
#.....#.......#.......#......................====///====.+..*###.###############
#.....#.......#.......#......................=====&=====.....###R###############
#.....#.......#.......#......................===========.....###################
#.....#.......#.......#......................===========.....###################
#....#.......#.......#.......................===========.....##................#
#...#.......#.......#........................===========...^.##................#
#..#.&.....#.......#.&.......................===========.....#*...............@#
#.#.......#.......#..........................===========.....##................#
##.......#.......#...........................===========.....##................#
################################################################################
Player Stuff
Player Stuff
Player Stuff

[Generic]

Hehe, I like how the 'secret' message is completely obvious. :P
Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

[Thomas]

Got an idea on how to implement it too. Make it a challenge that gets unlocked after a full win and put lots of ammo and weapons in the 2 spawn rooms. A one level challenge!

[Frankosity]

Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

I'd say that too, but I managed to find one. once.

[Melon]

Hehe, I like how the 'secret' message is completely obvious. :P
Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

Well, when you hear something backwards, your brain analyses it as a human speech and tries to make words out from it. Maybe it should be something like:
"D'nay the av'l edg of the adge of the emp'roh!"

[ParaSait]

I think I've found 2 megaspheres yet IIRC, from which 1 was destroyed :p

[Hipster Scumbag]

Hm, some more ideas.

Good lord, no.  The most irritating thing any doom mapper can do is make the player fight hurtfloors instead of monsters - and this goes double with the preposterous amount of damage lava deals these days.

[Thomas]

Yeah, I knew you wouldn't like them.

Acid baths only appear mid to lategame, when it's expected that you have some way to deal with acid. Protective boots and/or a single envirosuit should be enough to survive them.

Lava baths only appear endgame. If you really don't have any envirosuits by then, then the random number god hath clearly forsaken you.

With Acid Vaults and Hellish Castles, any floor damage is totally optional. An acid vault will merely give you excellent items (even better than that of a regular vault) if you're willing to wade through an annoying acid maze.

Hellish castles might have a back enterence if you're not feeling particularly fight-y today, which is the only reason you'd ever touch its moat. If you fight through it like a real man, you can just cross the bridge at the front.

[Frankosity]

The acid vaults and castles sound cool, but I have to agree with HS about the baths. It's already possible for randomly spawned pools to render a game unwinnable, and making it into a feature seems a bit risky. There wouldn't be any skill involved in getting around them, anyway, it'd just be a case of "do you have an envirosuit? y/n" with n basically meaning you have to have enough health to get past.

Even Nethack, the most capriciously malevolent roguelike known to man, never actually renders itself unwinnable through sheer chance.

[Thomas]

Even Nethack, the most capriciously malevolent roguelike known to man, never actually renders itself unwinnable through sheer chance.

100% of nethack games are unwinnable. (rounded to the nearest 0.1%)

Also I don't get what's so bad about acid. I'm gonna crunch some numbers and figure out just how much damage one can expect to take in an acid bath. Editing this post with stuff later.

EDIT:
The maths and spacial reasoning behind my madness. Spoiled for post-shortening reasons.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(Keep in mind that 1 damage is 2% HP)
Acid appears to do 6 raw damage.
It's halved to 3 if you're running.
Then foot armor and TaN is subtracted, so 2 armor + running = 1 acid damage.
Berserk makes you so incredibly resiliant that acid becomes 1 and lava becomes 3, even without armor.

Most doors in an acid bath will be surrounded by acid:

Code: [Select]

..#..
.=#=.
.=+=.
.=#=.
..#..Because all doors can be shot down, this will result in 2 turns of acid damage per door.
Many small rooms will be covered in acid, but large rooms will remain (mostly) acid free.
All barrels in an acid bath are acid barrels. As such, destroying a wall using a barrel results in this:

Code: [Select]

....#..
..===..
.=====.
.=====.
.=====.
..===..
....#..So this makes inter-room travel a mere 1 turn of acid damage, provided you can risk fighting everything in the room at once.

You'll cross about 5 rooms before finding the stairs, making it 8 squares of acid on average before you get to some stairs.

Anyway, if you bothered to read that then traversing between rooms will require you to run through 1-2 squares of acid. I'm assuming there's enough barrels to blow up every wall, so it should be more than possible to avoid acid-flooded rooms and stick to the (relatively) danger-free ones.

If you have a medpack, run the whole way, using the medpack to extend your run. Even without TaN and boots you'll take 72% damage at a ludicrously unlucky maximum. (52% cause you used a medpack)
If you have an envirosuit, use it!
If you have protective boots, acid does 8%. 2% if you run. Think of a quick path through.
If you find any powerup on the way, ANY powerup, you'll live. Berserk reduces acid to 2% damage, invulnerability to 0% (No really?). And a heal will reset your run, if it's only a health globe.

The only complication is trying to get 100% kills, items and levers. For that you'd need to be better prepared than just a single medpack.

[Passionario]

Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

In my experience, they spawn only during AoPurity games.

[Sachiko]

Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

In my experience, they spawn only during AoPurity games.

Nonsense. They can actually spawn in normal games, as well. I a 'Hurt Me Plenty!' run, I actually managed to pick up one. ONE!

To summarize, it is a matter of luck. You'll find one if you're very lucky, two if you're extremely lucky, three if the planets align correctly.

[Vestin]

Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

In my experience, they spawn only during AoPurity games.

Nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

[Melon]

Also, I thought megaspheres didn't exist! :O

In my experience, they spawn only during AoPurity games.

Nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

I can't affor an actual sign.

I died today :D

[Generic]

*BLAM*
Why yes, you did die today. Would you like your possessions identified?

[Melon]

*BLAM*
Why yes, you did die today. Would you like your possessions identified?

y

[Thomas]

Gonna put a couple more ideas in here. Someone's still reading them right?

Gib deaths:
If you die with -10 or less HP, you let out the higher pitched scream as opposed to the normal one.

If you manage to do twice the damage normally required to kill an enemy (eg kill a human using 20 damage, when 10 is enough) then their death sound is replaced with DooM 2's gib sound (DSSLOP), and they leave a pile of gibs instead of a corpse. This could maybe stop Arch-Viles from ressurecting them.

Nightmare:
Too many people are beating nightmare now. Add in the other special feature DooM 2's nightmare had: Reduced fire delay. Make all enemies fire with half or maybe even a third of the normal delay, but reload and move at normal speed.

If this is included, you might want to look in to the late game ranks, because nightmare would become almost impossible to beat and everyone would be a general forever.

[Blade]

Gib deaths:
If you die with -10 or less HP, you let out the higher pitched scream as opposed to the normal one.

+

If you manage to do twice the damage normally required to kill an enemy (eg kill a human using 20 damage, when 10 is enough) then their death sound is replaced with DooM 2's gib sound (DSSLOP), and they leave a pile of gibs instead of a corpse. This could maybe stop Arch-Viles from ressurecting them.

+. But without the resurrection prohibition.

[Melon]

Gib deaths:
If you die with -10 or less HP, you let out the higher pitched scream as opposed to the normal one.

+

If you manage to do twice the damage normally required to kill an enemy (eg kill a human using 20 damage, when 10 is enough) then their death sound is replaced with DooM 2's gib sound (DSSLOP), and they leave a pile of gibs instead of a corpse. This could maybe stop Arch-Viles from ressurecting them.

+. But without the resurrection prohibition.

To make it more funnier, the "ghost bug" from original Doom could be implemented :D

[Zi]

If you manage to do twice the damage normally required to kill an enemy (eg kill a human using 20 damage, when 10 is enough) then their death sound is replaced with DooM 2's gib sound (DSSLOP), and they leave a pile of gibs instead of a corpse. This could maybe stop Arch-Viles from ressurecting them.

+. But without the resurrection prohibition.

Why not?  Playing so much N!, I'd rather than we did have a way other than liquid floods to prevent resurrection in really tight situations.  If you're fighting a crowd of strong monsters, it's likely that they're resurrect even faster than you can kill them.  And half of the time there's no alternate route to get around them to continue to search for the stairs.