DRL > Discussion
Badges, badges, badges!
Game Hunter:
WARNING: Big post. Don't let it scare you into replying, though. :D
Been looking at the badges lately, and I'm wondering if there are plans to...*cough*...balance them a little. Some are impossible (not just stupid hard), some are scaled poorly, some are way too easy. I'm going to write a new list here, lemme know what you guys think about it and if it's a fair list without removing the challenge (and, in some cases, brain-dead insanity) of the old one. (Changes are in bold for easy reading.)
Bronze:
UACWin standard game on any difficultyVeteranWin game on any difficulty with 100% killsStrongmanWin standard game using basic melee weaponsBerserkerReach level 7 on Angel of BerserkMarksmanReach level 12 on Angel of MarksmanshipShottymanReach level 12 on Angel of ShotgunneryLightfootReach level 12 on Angel of Light TravelEagernessReach level 12 on Angel of ImpatienceRunnerReach level 8 on Angel of HasteInquisitorReach level 12 on Angel of PurityQuartermasterReach level 12 on Angel of Red AlertDestroyerReach level 12 on Angel of Max CarnageBrickClear out The WallLavaClear out the Lava PitsSkullClear out City of SkullsReaperExit the Mortuary aliveScavengerScavenge part of the Vaults*ArenaComplete Hell ArenaArachnoClear out Spider's Lair
*: This is just a better specification of how to achieve the badge. It will work the same as the current Scavenger Silver.
Silver:
UACWin standard game on Hurt Me PlentyVeteranWin game on Hurt Me Plenty with 100% killsStrongmanWin standard game using knives and fistsBerserkerReach level 16 on Angel of BerserkMarksmanComplete Angel of MarksmanshipShottymanComplete Angel of ShotgunneryLightfootComplete Angel of Light Travel on HMPEagernessComplete Angel of ImpatienceRunnerComplete Angel of HasteInquisitorComplete Angel of PurityQuartermasterComplete Angel of Red AlertDestroyerComplete Angel of Max CarnageMasochistComplete Angel of MasochismBrickClear out The Wall on AoMr, AoSg, or AoBLavaClear out the Lava Pits on UVSkullClear out City of Skulls on UVScavengerClear the VaultsArenaComplete Hell Arena on UVArachnoClear out Spider's Lair on UV
Gold:
UACWin standard game on Ultra-violenceVeteranWin game on Ultra-violence with 100% killsStrongmanWin standard game using knives and fists HMPBerserkerComplete Angel of BerserkMarksmanComplete Angel of Marksmanship on UVShottymanComplete Angel of Shotgunnery on UVLightfootComplete Angel of Light Travel on UV/no MAc EagernessComplete Angel of Impatience on UVRunnerComplete Angel of Haste on UV/100%InquisitorComplete Angel of Purity on UVQuartermasterAngel of Red Alert at 100% killsDestroyerComplete Angel of Max Carnage on UVMasochistComplete Angel of Masochism on UVCenturialComplete Angel of 100PacifistComplete Angel of PacifismReaperComplete the MortuaryGatekeeperClear Hellgate on UV AoMsArenaComplete Hell Arena on UV AoMrLonginusComplete Unholy Cathedral
Platinum:
UACWin standard game on Nightmare!VeteranFully win the game on Ultra-violenceStrongmanWin standard game using only fists on HMPEliteWin standard UV game as ConquerorDemonicWin standard Nightmare! game as ExplorerBerserkerAngel of Berserk on Nightmare!MarksmanAngel of Marksmanship on Nightmare!ShottymanAngel of Shotgunnery on Nightmare!EagernessAngel of Impatience on Nightmare!InquisitorAngel of Purity on Nightmare!QuartermasterAngel of Red Alert on Nightmare!DestroyerAngel of Max Carnage on Nightmare!MasochistAngel of Masochism on Nightmare!CenturialAngel of 100 on Ultra-violencePacifistAngel of Pacifism on Nightmare!ReaperComplete the Mortuary on Nightmare!ScavengerClear the Vaults on Nightmare!ArenaComplete Hell Arena on Nightmare!LonginusComplete Unholy Cathedral on Nightmare!
Diamond:
UACWin standard Nightmare! under 20k turnsVeteranFully win the game on Nightmare!StrongmanWin standard game using only fists on UVEliteWin standard Nightmare! with min 85% killsDemonicWin standard Nightmare! under 18 min*BerserkerAngel of Berserk on N! without TaN/HRMarksmanAoMr on N! basic pistol/without DG+ShottymanAngel of Shotgunnery on N! with min 80% killsEagernessAngel of Impatience on N! as ExplorerQuartermasterAngel of Red Alert on UV/100%DestroyerAoMC on N! without Iro/adv traits^MasochistAngel of Masochism on N! without Iro/TaNCenturialComplete Angel of 100 on Nightmare!PacifistComplete Angel of Pacifism on N! without HRBrickClear The Wall on Nightmare! AoIReaperComplete the Mortuary on Nightmare! AoBArenaComplete Hell Arena on Nightmare! AoMrLonginusComplete Unholy Cathedral on N! without BruteUltimateWin N! with Gambler's Shield and only fists#
*: This was increased as per Dervis's supposed fastest run, see http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,2272.msg19591.html#msg19591.
+: Using blaster or any of the uniques voids this badge.
^: Adv traits are any traits that require other traits to unlock.
#: This is the "joke" badge that's meant to be impossible, something hopefully averted in other badges with the changes.
Some justifications:
- Scavenger/Reaper Bronze are stupid easy, so the others have been shifted accordingly.
- Masochist probably deserves more badges, it doesn't have the same quality as 100/AoPc to warrant starting at Gold.
- Berserker gets a slight facelift on levels (seven is immediately after Chained Court can generate; sixteen requires you to pass Hellgate and just before UC) and a more significant one on harder difficulties. AoB's difficulty lies in two basic problems (although this doesn't cover everything): reaching the Chainsaw and surviving whenever zerk armor isn't on (bug aside). The way I see it, UV/N! isn't a big enough gap in the first few levels reaching Chained Court to merit separate medals, and Diamond's lack of HR/TaN prevents the all-important survival. However, you have other options that improve your ability nonetheless (incidentally, Finesse should affect all weapons, not just ranged...c'mon, like having the finesse to wield a martial weapon is any different from a gun, if not moreso) like Iro and SoB, which gets you to level 10 easy.
- Brick Silver has AoSg added because, the way I see it, the point of the badge is to have enough luck to either get a wall-destroying special weapon or enough phases. AoSg limits explosive attacks just like AoMr and AoB, and has a possible wall-killer (plasma shotgun, maybe). It doesn't make it any easier but it increases the availability of working towards the badge.
- Swapping Quartermaster Gold and Platinum is a personal choice, given that 100% kills on HNTR is actually pretty simple with a little luck with rooms and having enough globes to run around. I could do with adding some other challenge, like Explorer.
- Centurial has the same treatment as the original Berserker badges: UV for the Plat and N! for the Diamond. Given that the normal Centurial Diamond is impossible (yes, yes it is, don't try to deny it) and UV A100 is still ridiculous, I think this is a fair challenge. If you want to be mean (but probably possible) we could say the player can't hit level 20.
- Gatekeeper Gold is basically the replacement for Masochist Silver, which is not only not in a very good badge range but (if envirosuits really aren't supposed to work in AoMs) ridiculously luck-based. I like the idea of trying to add a Hellgate challenge, especially one that would prefer to phase through the level.
- Demonic Diamond is the old UAC Diamond (albeit slightly easier) and UAC Diamond now limits turn count rather than time, turning it into a game of "how fast can I level up and build up the right equipment for Cybie in the same time it takes for AoPc?" Both should be possible, but more tweaking may be necessary.
- Marksman Diamond gets rid of the stupid-impossible "without SoG" and, instead, enforces one non-special pistol. I don't think it's unfair to restrict uniques on a Diamond badge (and no one will blame you for using it, AoMr N! is damn hard on its own) and would normally make it a lot easier, so this negates that possibility.
- Inquisitor Diamond seems pretty moot to have more (only Chained Court is really the only threat as an Explorer). Scavenger Diamond seems needlessly difficult, and plenty "possible" with the normal med-packs and phases on AoB w/Spear.
- Destroyer Diamond's unique restriction of no adv traits also master traits, so no MAc, MCe, or MFa. Also, no Badass, DM, Int, WK, or even Juggler. Like the old days, right? (Honestly, tell me, I wouldn't know.) It's not that Destroyer Diamond isn't freaking hard, but I think restricting Iro/TaN is the wrong way to go about it (and also makes it somewhat redundant with Masochist, which is perfectly appropriate).
Just some thoughts after researching for my badge guide.
Buzzard:
I like the badges system, but I think it has to be reworked somewhat. There's only about two or three badges in general for the Hurt Me Plenty difficulty. Of course, you could do the "Beat (Challenge) On Any Difficulty" badges, but there's no real reason to. I think that there should be more encouragement to play through games on the HMP difficulty, to ease the step into attaining Ultra-violence Badges.
Game Hunter:
--- Quote from: Buzzard on May 07, 2010, 13:23 ---I like the badges system, but I think it has to be reworked somewhat. There's only about two or three badges in general for the Hurt Me Plenty difficulty. Of course, you could do the "Beat (Challenge) On Any Difficulty" badges, but there's no real reason to. I think that there should be more encouragement to play through games on the HMP difficulty, to ease the step into attaining Ultra-violence Badges.
--- End quote ---
The Bronze badges are pretty consistent with themselves (at least with the revisions made): Winning the game on standard allows you to play on ITYTD, a MUCH easier version of the game, even when compared to HNTR. Trust me when I say I managed Strongman Silver's knife-only ITYTD on my first try, twice, whereas AoB has taken quite a few tries each time. While the second victory was completed when I was already getting used to UV, the first was gained as something to try before even attempting UV seriously. Making it so that most Bronze badges require you only to complete half of the game on challenges, which force HNTR as a minimum, is at about the same level of difficulty. I wouldn't mind upping them to "complete Hellgate", as the difficulty tends to separate between the Base and the Hell. So long as Scavenger and Reaper are changed to something that isn't just "go down the stairs", they'll be on par for Bronze.
Silver is probably the best place to stick some more HMP badges. I do have a question which relates to the badges: how are the difficulty levels for each badge maintained? I would argue that AoSg is significantly easier than AoMr, and AoI is easier than AoPu. Personally (and without trying to remember what the exact values are) this is how I would rate the challenges:
Light Travel - Easy
Shotgunnery - Easy
Marksmanship - Medium
Max Carnage - Medium
Berserk - Hard
Impatience - Hard
Pacifism - Very Hard
Purity - Very Hard
Masochism - Blade
100 - Blade
Kinda also makes me wonder why they're ordered in the way that they are. AoSg is easier due to a shotty buff, and AoB is easier due to the to-hit buff of Brute; the rest are slight deviations based on relative difficulty. Max Carnage is a weird one, because it's really hard when you're starting out and gets much, much easier by the time you're "good" at the game. Considering Destroyer Diamond is one of the most attainable badges in the Diamond league (if not THE most, I'd have to check) I think Medium is pretty fair.
Before I digress further, my suggestion is that all Easy/Medium challenges with Silver badges could be replaced with "Complete [challenge] on HMP". It'd give more room for those badges: the only caveat is what the difficulty gap between HMP and UV really is. Having made the HNTR/UV gap jump, my only experience in HMP is AoLT and a pistol run for fun. I'd probably lean towards it feeling more like HNTR than UV, but I'd much rather hear someone who is more attuned with all three.
Speaking of AoLT, my reason for the change in AoLT is that N! has become a LOT harder these days with the speed increase. Placing any N! difficulty in Gold is pushing it. Thus, UV/no MAc seemed a reasonable alternative. Frankly, Runner Gold also needs a slight nerf, like 90%/95% kills. I've spent many a game trying that one and I barely ever get past the fourth or so floor trying for every single kill. Revs showing up on floor 3 is nightmarish, and if I could just skip that one and move on, it'd be much more Gold-like.
action52:
--- Quote from: Game Hunter on May 07, 2010, 18:26 ---Light Travel - Easy
Shotgunnery - Easy
Marksmanship - Medium
Max Carnage - Medium
Berserk - Hard
Impatience - Hard
Pacifism - Very Hard
Purity - Very Hard
Masochism - Blade
100 - Blade
--- End quote ---
Mostly agreed, although I would put Impatience at Medium, at most. It just isn't very difficult. Hell's Arena is a lot harder, but it's at the beginning so you don't get set back too far if you die. After that, it's not that much much harder than a standard game, as long as you play carefully and go back to pick up medkits/powerups whenever your health starts to drop. The extra inventory space for ammo and spare armor do a lot to help compensate for the lack of health on demand, too.
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