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Author Topic: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart  (Read 23064 times)

nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2006, 12:38 »

so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2006, 12:47 »

so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
hum?
TFoN already answered that :p
why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
Permadeath should always be part of it. It's a RL after all :D

As for me, I still remain adamant on my opinion that the game should be balanced and not require restarts which in turn would make restarts obsolete.
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TFoN

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 12:50 »

Not obsolete - fun ^^

nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 13:09 »

so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
hum?
TFoN already answered that :p
why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
Permadeath should always be part of it. It's a RL after all :D

As for me, I still remain adamant on my opinion that the game should be balanced and not require restarts which in turn would make restarts obsolete.

hum? ..now english is not my native language, but did i misread tfon totally? :P as i understand he meant add permadeath to a 'hardcore mode' in diablorl (like diablo2 has), not all difficulties? that would anyway be a good idea imo..
Tfon, please elaborate your previous post :D
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TFoN

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 13:23 »

No problem :)

Quote
...if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.

I assume you just missed the text marked in red, but in case you really misunderstood the words, the text in green means that the special part of hardcore mode will be playing Normal-Nightmare-Hell, once each and in that order.
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.

nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 13:45 »

yeah i guess my eyes just skipped over that red highlighted part :P

Quote
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.

is it like this in diablo1?, ..i cant remember, but in d2 its not like that anyways :)
EDIT: when you say 'start new games' w/o going up in difficulty, you simply mean when you restart the game and enemies are back everywhere?

well, then to clarify my own personal view on how to handle the death issue :P:
if the game turns out a quickie, permadeath would be fine in all diffuclties BUT, if its gonna be a long grinder like i hope:

basicly exactly the way it is in diablo2:

*normal difficulty: basicly a walk in the park, something you go through fast, fairly small dungeon levels, not very spectacular items. no resistance penalties

*nightmare difficulty: here's where the challenge gradually builds, larger levels and better equipment. resistance penalties.

*hell difficulty: should be ..hell. real hard, major resistance penalties, faster deadlier mobs, very large levels, and also chance for extremely good items

*hardcore mode: same as above but with permadeath, and a slightly raised chance for getting yet better items

EDIT: ok, i just re-read your initial post tfon :). i can agree with most thing you say. tho i dont think you should be able so start on any difficulty at once, i like stuff to be 'unlockable'. maybe free to start on nightmare, but hell should be locked until nightmare is finished
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 13:57 by nokturnal »
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Ugm

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2007, 07:32 »

But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.

I think it should be made default in DiabloRL, because it's a roguelike and levels of Nightmare and Hell should be activated through character (not player!) progress in simmilar to DoomRL's way. Why not let playing the game on easier level if player wants? It would be boring but it's always fun to test powerful spells on hordes of weak skeletons. The xp gain should be dependant on clvl, just like in D2. By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
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TFoN

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2007, 09:31 »

But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.

By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
A) That's why it's a difficulty level - because it's *harder* and *more challenging* :P IMO, "Hell" isn't more obviously a difflvl, considering you enter very powerful and can't pick it in the begining.

B) Not in D1, AFAIR.

Quote
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.

is it like this in diablo1?, ..i cant remember, but in d2 its not like that anyways :)
EDIT: when you say 'start new games' w/o going up in difficulty, you simply mean when you restart the game and enemies are back everywhere?

It's the way I described it in D1, and the way you described in D2 - and by "start new games" I meant both, as they're close enough :)
I think DiabloRL should use the system from D1, though, 'cause it's based on it.

DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2007, 11:21 »

I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the  way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL. Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.
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TFoN

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2007, 12:37 »

Although XP-control will limit godhood :P I tend to agree, and if there will be requirements, they should be very clear and general.
But adding challenges for hardcore games might make for some heavy gaming potential :)

Ugm

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2007, 12:47 »

But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.

By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
A) That's why it's a difficulty level - because it's *harder* and *more challenging* :P IMO, "Hell" isn't more obviously a difflvl, considering you enter very powerful and can't pick it in the begining.

So it's just a challange, not a difficulty level :P Every difficulty level is mutually exclusive while hardcore mode isn't ;)

B) Not in D1, AFAIR.

That is right, but I was writing about D2.

I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the  way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL.

I don't agree, because original Diablo is simple and generally not challenging hack'n'slash game. DiabloRL will also be short, with simple rules, backpack, with just a couple of classes. It will still be roguelikefied arcade game, so no storyline, demanding quests or real NPCs (which would have some other useful function than selling items). Does Kornel have an ambition to make Diablo real role-playing game? ;)

Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.

You can corpse farm on N! and become a god in DoomRL too ;)

I thought of restart AFTER finishing the game. Player would have an option to choose higher diff level or stay on the same level and I have an idea of making higher difficulties harder with every game you play with the same char. So if you chose to play ten times on normal, the game would become damned hard on nightmare. That would quite prevent (boring!) scumming to 40 clvl and entering nightmare to rush through it like a young god. But if you'd like to enter lower difficulty just for fun - why not? No/little exp and crappy items would be no reward.
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DaEezT

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2007, 12:59 »

DiabloRL will also be short, with simple rules, backpack, with just a couple of classes. It will still be roguelikefied arcade game, so no storyline, demanding quests or real NPCs (which would have some other useful function than selling items).
And this is a fact, yes?

Because right now Kornel never made even the slightest hint in that direction. Quite the opposite actually.

Actually there are a few features of Diablo II that I would like in DoomRL -> like the fun additional items, or the way levelling works (the skill-tree)...

Okay, the engine is ported to Valkyrie and Lua, so it's time to build a feature list for DiabloRL 0.5.0. I have some things already planned, but I would like to know your opinion :). Bear in mind that this will still be an early version, so please don't ask for all te dungeons, additional (beyond Diablo) quests, full magic system etc. I would like to make a list of things that need to be implemented for the DiabloRL 0.5.0 release. Post your proposed list!

If DiabloRL ends up being acard style like DoomRL then I wouldn't care about the specifics anyway because that would just plain suck. A watered down game like Deus Ex 2 :(
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Ugm

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2007, 14:59 »

No, no, DaEezT, I mean that original Diablo is quite an arcade game to me. Kornel wrote that he wants to make DiabloRL basing on Jarulf's Guide and thus making it very close to the original. Diablo isn't very complicated and you expect DiabloRL to be a great epic tale?

If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
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nokturnal

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2007, 16:25 »

I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the  way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL. Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.

yeah i agree with the above. concerning the restarting issue, it doesnt really matter how that turns out imo.. i play d2 regularly and i very seldomly use it (not to say that there aren't those who do, but who cares?), when i get tired of a session, i usually play until i find the next waypoint, save & exit and start from there the next time..
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Ugm

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Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2007, 16:41 »

i play d2 regularly and i very seldomly use it (not to say that there aren't those who do, but who cares?), when i get tired of a session, i usually play until i find the next waypoint, save & exit and start from there the next time..

And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?

I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting. I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too.

Guys, don't get me wrong, I don't want DiabloRL to have unlimited and uncontrolled restart possibility. It would just be fun to be able to play some character until he dies, not until he finishes the game at chosen difficulty level. Something new, something fresh. But it has to be well-thought, that's obvious.
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