Chaosforge Forum

  • July 23, 2019, 20:36
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart  (Read 22842 times)

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« on: December 24, 2006, 13:55 »

You all probably know how in Diablo, game-restart w/developed char and difficulty levels make for very high playability and char development, but I've thought about it, and it might hamper scoring and ranking, which we all seem to enjoy very much in DoomRL.

So, I've thought up a system which should be able to implement both sides, and possibly more (that is, whenever difficulty levels will even be used here :) ):

  • there are the normal Diablo difficulties: Normal, Nightmare and Hell
  • unless monster spawning will be implemented (is this even being considered?), games can be restarted like in Diablo

 Each new character is then restricted as so:
  • you can start on any of the difficulty levels
  • you can go to higher diff.lvls with little restriction (maybe some requirements like with DoomRL), restarting the game world as usual
  • you cannot, however, go back to easier diff.lvls with that char
  • like in Diablo, by limiting XP gain or the like, you can only reach certain char.lvls on lower diff.lvls, making restart-scumming much less useful
  • in order to encourage and reward harder play, relatively minor perks, like extra stat-gain, will be given for leveling up on higher diff.lvls. This way, the earlier you enter higher difficulties, the more potential your char will have throughout the entire game, while not easing it up so much that higher diff.lvls are "the same but different". This may make some items and spells only realistically (or possibly officially) usable by hard players, making the very hardest stages reachable by others - but only passable by them

I'm very much looking forward to everyone's thoughts and feedback on this one.

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2006, 14:11 »

I thought about this too but didn't really bother posting because DIabloRL is quite early in the developement stage ;)

Anyway, my idea would be to only allow restart with characters who successfully finished the game. Sorta like Chrono Trigger etc. The game creates a victory save that allows you to start a new game at the next higher difficulty setting (_not_ the same) and o/c deletes the save upon start.
This would keep the rogue like feel of the game (no simple restart for item/xp scumming) and it would make beating the game on higher difficulties a real challange because you have to make it thorugh all the lower difficulties with that char. And it wouldn't break the score system.

And if this turns out to be too hard a certain item from other RLs might find it's way into DiabloRL ;D
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2006, 15:21 »

Frostmourn this time? :P


I'm a little afraid that it will prove a bad thing, going through the ENTIRE game just to get to more challanging grounds, and then go YASD and do it ALL over again, when the most serious strain is the numbing ease of Normal.

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2006, 15:43 »

Frostmourn this time? :P

I thought more along the lines of a free AoLS whenever you move up to a higher difficulty :p
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2006, 11:31 »

Frostmourn this time? :P

I thought more along the lines of a free AoLS whenever you move up to a higher difficulty :p

Hehehe :P

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2006, 03:58 »

OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.

Diablo 1
Single player
  • No difficulty setting
  • Restart any time
  • Redo quests
  • No XP for weak enemies
  • Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)

Multi player (Only played two or three times years ago)
  • Difficulty settings
  • Acceess to difficulties based on clvl
  • Restart any time


Diablo 2
Single player
  • 3 difficulty settings
  • Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
  • Restart any time
  • Quests can't be redone
  • No XP for weak enemies
  • Waypoints are kept
  • You can come back to lower difficulties

Multi player
  • 3 difficulty settings
  • Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
  • Restart any time
  • Quests can't be redone
  • No XP for weak enemies
  • Waypoints are kept
  • You can come back to lower difficulties
  • Hardcore mode


My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.

For DiabloRL I'd stick to what I said in my first post, including the possibility of an AoLS. Having to paly through all difficulties and restarting on normal once a char dies isn't really the issue. It's how long a single run takes. e.g. if you can beat normal in 1 hr and die halfway through nightmare it's not a big deal. If normal takes 20hr then it is.
Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.

Maybe you could implement restarting as sort of a training option and see how it works out (balance). It would allow the character to restart the game with the current character but doing so bars that character from moving up to the higher difficulty.

Another big question is how to handle quest rewards on higher difficulties. D2 had no pre defined items as rewards but D1 did and the Cleaver isn't really much of a reward on Hell :p
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Malek Deneith

  • Grand Inquisitor Emeritus
  • Grand Inquisitor
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1256
  • Lost Seraph
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2006, 06:19 »

OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.

Diablo 1
Single player
  • No difficulty setting
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
Logged
Inquisition - saving your soul, one bolter shell at a time.
Spoiler: "Hackmaster Kills" (click to show/hide)

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2006, 08:01 »

OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.

Diablo 1
Single player
  • No difficulty setting
  • Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
And it saved "gates" you've entered previously with that char, like the crack to Hell.

Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.
These games have lots of monster spawning, and methods to use them for good item gain (i.e. sacrifice, which can also be heavily scummed).
That's why I said in my first post "unless monster spawning will be implemented", but I deem this VERY outside the spirit of Diablo ("undiabloish" just doesn't sound right :P ).
Yes, you said "IF the game is balanced". Absolutely true. But a one-run Diablo game would require, IMO right now, either very early ability-gain and quick XP jumps or a massively tweaked late/end-game, either way making all the different ability-monster crosses crowded (i.e. pitting lvl1 novas against horned-demons and steel lords, neither of which happened often in Diablo, for different reasons). And the way I see it, that's too-much not what the original game was about (even if this one's still a good game).

Another thought I had, however, and I think won't ruin the original feel much and won't hamper scoring, is a much longer dungeon, maybe with a shortish, crowded end-game like in Diablo, with "pick-and-play" ordinary difficulties, with a quickly escalating game as the challenge of harder difficulties (like with DoomRL).

But I still believe mid-game/made-char restart is a main feature of Diablo, very much worth keeping (although, yeah, tweaked to prevent easy escape :P WoW's exit-interval in game-turns?).

I think your idea of testing game-restart as a training option at first's a good idea, if Kornel can handle the load :) (Keep up the good work, man! Can't stress it enough)


As for Cleavers in Hell - could make it interesting and make unlockable item abilities for massive use and/or XPlvl.
The Cleaver could then give a strength bonus proportional to your level, and after the 600th kill/30th lord kill/100,000 XP gain with it (depending on method of balancing), gain a good chance to vorpal strike ;)
That would make pre-gens the same on every difflvl, but still way better on the higher ones (30 lords on Normal come very slowly, 100,000XP hard to gain on weakened monsters), if you play right. It also wouldn't be much off Diablo spirit, with D2's sets and XPlvl requirements.


PS: this is why I mentioned my idea now - better bring these things up early, so programming can go on later with a list of ready ideas and with less sudden questions.
Also, it lets Kornel know we're still interested :)

nokturnal

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2006, 16:47 »

Quote
My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.

as a diablo2 addict, i agree that you should have to beat the lower difficulties first. when it comes to permadeath im kind of torn. yes, its a major "feature" of roguelikes, however, like you say, if each difficulty takes an hour, its ok. but ..i dunno the essence of diablo is really like you say, a hunt for items until you reach the "real" difficulty level.

and i like that, spending loads and loads of hours, just to find the ultimare random or unique item, to prepare yourself for hell difficulty.
and if this game turns out similarly, it would pretty much suck if your spend 6-7h in normal/nightmare, only to see all you collected vanish from a some stupid mistake once you enter hell :P
oh, i believe resistances goes -50% (or 40%) once you enter nightmare, and then to -100% on hell.
Logged

Zephyre Syx

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2006, 18:25 »

Nice, I love this suggestion.  I agree with the hardcore game of completing difficulties consecutively (I think that what y'all saying).  Uh...if spawning is implemented, I suggest that It'll be limited for so many times per floor, so that it can be possible to fully eradicated everything on the floor if you have the time (and bloodlust) to hunt them all down.  Spending time on a game before proceeding to the upper levels isn't too bad scumming if you're limited in enemies to find and items.  I do kinda think if you finish the game, it'll jump directly to the next difficulty for round two so I guess before you get to that point you do all that you can before then.

Wow though, what if you're still hungry for some whoop-ass after a healthy helping of hell?  That REALLY have to wait til later. =)
Logged
"Nah, it's not that those ideas are bad, I'm just trying to show you why I think my way of thinking is better."
-Kornel Kisielewicz

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2006, 06:17 »

I agree with the hardcore game of completing difficulties consecutively (I think that what y'all saying). 
Well, not quite "all" of us. I'm mostly against it (read the first post), but also see below.

Wow though, what if you're still hungry for some whoop-ass after a healthy helping of hell?  That REALLY have to wait til later. =)
In the original, the hero takes Diablo into himself in the end. Maybe his journy east? ^^


As for the different opinions, if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
But game-restart's just too Diablo to miss out on, and really should be a part of regular play.

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2006, 06:21 »

But game-restart's just too Diablo to miss out on, and really should be a part of regular play.

To me it was actually not important at all. D1 was balanced enough so one could beat it without restarting and D2 was designed to be more or less the opposite. You HAD to to restart a zillion times to prepare for Hell which is not really fun. That is also why I never beat D2 on Hell even though I played through Nightmare a few times, I just couln't get myself to restart for a week just so my char can survive more than 15 minutes on Hell :/
That is the same reason why I stopped playing DoomRL on Nightmare! for now. It also just a long, bring grind early on.
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

TFoN

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Gleefully antisocial!
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 06:58 »

Well, I kept slaughtering D1 Normal monsters also in my late XPlvls just for interesting items, books and high spell levels, to discover new monsters, and just 'cause I'm a sadistic bastard :P
So I guess our playing styles are just a bit different ^^

With Diablo2 I never really made it past Normal 'cause I refused to take skills on such a technical basis (I was playing for atmosphere, with things like compulsory bone-armor for my necromancer, raising the dead becuase I can, eventhough skeletons were too weak at the time).
Although I still want to try that sometime, just to see if I can... :)

Quote
That is the same reason why I stopped playing DoomRL on Nightmare! for now. It also just a long, bring grind early on.
Try going on at lvl5 or so a few times if you haven't, see how far you'll get.

nokturnal

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 09:41 »

Quote
As for the different opinions, if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them

good idea!

Quote
You HAD to to restart a zillion times to prepare for Hell which is not really fun.

well i dunno about that :), buy like TFoN said, you have to take the skills on a 'technical' basis (synergies etc), and also to build your equipment to help your selected skills, or to make up weakspots created by your specific build.
imo this is also a major feature in diablo (2 anyways), and i really hope this is included in some far off future version of diablorl :)

Logged

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4445
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 09:59 »

Just to tell you that I'm not ignoring this discussion -- I'm reading carefully all you guys post :].
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Pages: [1] 2 3 4