Other Roguelikes > DiabloRL
Suggestion for difficulty levels and game restart
nokturnal:
--- Quote from: DaEezT on January 03, 2007, 17:48 ---That basic idea is probably why we'll never find common ground :p
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?
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now i dont play mmo's, but like i said before, you dont HAVE to replay/farm areas in d2 to beat the game.
however, i personally love the idea of collecting gear for a specific build so i guess we're at a dead end there :D
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 17:26 ---now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
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--- Quote ---That point makes no sense to me :/
What you saying is that because in Diablo II the drop rate for good items is so low that it takes long to farm it would be bad to have permadeath in DiabloRL?
--- End quote ---
no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine :P
its just that when you find the perfect item it is so much more rewarding, than finding that apocalypse mace for the 50th time.
items in diablo are so much more diversesified and has so many more stats than most roguelikes, thats why its so much more rewarding finding items in d2. and since the randomness of the stats on items is so diversified, you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
--- Quote ---As you mentioned yourself the chance of finding a good items is higher in Nethack and other RL's. That is because they have permadeath.
The drop rates in D2 have to be low because a palyer can just do Mephisto/Baal runs 24/7 but you can't do the same in Nethack.
--- End quote ---
drop rates on special über unique items from e.g baal is low, yes. but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
--- Quote ---The whole drop rate thing is part of the game balance and of course a balanced Rogue Like with permadeath would have different drop rates than Diablo II has.
--- End quote ---
and thats why i propose a separate 'hardcore mode' for all you hardcore RL'ers, like d2 hardcore mode which also have higher drop rates.
Ugm:
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 16:48 ---
--- Quote ---And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?
--- End quote ---
yeah, then they go to the museum. what do you usually do with your characters when you finish a game? :P
--- End quote ---
If we are refering to Diablo, I play them until leveling becomes boring. I just play them for fun. Winning is not quite a goal in Diablo games, you should know that.
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 16:48 ---
--- Quote ---I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting.
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i just said i did, if you believe me or not ..i dont care
--- End quote ---
What clevel did you have upon finishing each difficulty?
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 16:48 ---
--- Quote ---I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too
--- End quote ---
are you suggesting i should play the game in one run? :D
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No, it's you who suggest that. You're telling us, that you ran through a game stopping only at waypoints treating them like saving game in rogulikes, which would be fine. Look closer at the bolded part of what you have quoted.
So why are you laughing now?
--- Quote from: DaEezT on January 03, 2007, 16:51 ---I never read anything about "making it very close to the original." from Kornel.
--- End quote ---
Ok, now I see that I misunderstood that Kornel's basing on Jarulf's guide part. But that was basis of my conception! Aargh! Stupid me ;)
--- Quote from: DaEezT on January 03, 2007, 16:51 ---
--- Quote from: Ugm on January 03, 2007, 14:59 ---If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
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Depends on how you define de boundaries of that "category". Nethack could also be seen as a "hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements" depending on how exactly you define the terms. I definitely don't consider Nethack to be some kind of epic, character driven, uber RPG with a novel grade story.
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I mean those elements that doesn't exist in Diablo like whole interaction, extended inventory, using of items and so on. But since simplicity of Diablo has nothing to do with DiabloRL (my fault, my fault), I give up that argument.
--- Quote from: DaEezT on January 03, 2007, 16:51 ---That is why I am very opposed to the thought of DiabloRL ending up as some kind of "arcade" game. AFter all, it already had features like character stats, spells, items/Artifacts, side quests, inventory system, equipment system, in-game story elemnts (talk to NPCs) which are all things that Doom didn't have, and DoomRL turned out to have <edit>some of</edit> them.
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Maybe it's just naming two different things by us. I consider Diablo partly arcade because of its simplicity mentioned many times before. I don't want to go further with DiabloRL. Quite the contrary, I'd love to see new features and enhancements which would make roguelike version more complex.
--- Quote from: DaEezT on January 03, 2007, 17:48 ---It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?
--- End quote ---
I agree with you. Game should be playable in enjoyable way without need to restart your character to do the same quest dozens of times (that is balancing matter, of course).
But all this wasting of heroes after killing Diablo is just... undiablish ;)
It'll be ok, though, if DiabloRL will be a roguelike based on Diablo, not a roguelikefied game itself.
DaEezT:
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 18:21 ---no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
[...]
but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
--- End quote ---
In the post I replied to you clearly said:
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 17:26 ---if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
--- End quote ---
YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.
need
• verb 1 require (something) because it is essential or very important. 2 expressing necessity or obligation
So, what is it supposed to be? First you say one thing and then you claim the opposite.
My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 17:26 ---now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalen
--- End quote ---
And that simply does not make any sense at all.
You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game (especially since that game isn't even half done if you believe the version number) and then argue the bad side of permadeath based on that.
Diablo II is not a RL!
Diablo II only has permadeath as an optional feature
Diablo II let's you restart as often as you want.
And those three factors influence the drop rate, NOT the other way around.
RL's are different in those any many other ways(they are turn based and give you unlimited time to devise a strategy) and of course that affects the drop rate and availability of items as every sword dipping cat lover knows.
Here's another nice quote and I don't know how it fits in.
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 18:21 ---the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine
--- End quote ---
So you DO find them without farming and do 'just fine' eh?
So why keep arguing some non permadeath approach based on the arguement that it takes "hours and hours of dungeon crawling" to get specific items if you DO find them without farming and also do 'just fine'?
Since you contradict yourself I can draw two conclusions:
a) Specific items are needed in Diablo II and are also hard to find. In that case you don't need to worry because DiabloRL will not be a 1:1 D2 clone and be balanced in itself so the drop rates will be fine in the permadeath context.
b) Specific items are not needed in D2 and you just like to farm them for 'fun' (as it is not needed) to turn your character into a god even though you can beat the game 'just fine' without farming. In that case it would be pointless to have a restarting/non-permadeath system as you yourself stated that it's not needed and you can do 'just fine' without it. So leaving it out wouldn't hurt, or would it?
The main point of this and my previous post is:
The Diablo II SPECIFIC drop rates can not be translated into DiabloRL. Any arguement based on the rarity of Diablo II items has no meaning for DiabloRL as it is a completely different game.
It's the same as Doom vs DoomRL: Ideas/theme: yes; exact numbers: NO
TFoN:
HOLY SHIT! And I thought I write scrolls :P
Ok, I'm trying to read most of it, but please forgive me if I write as if I missed an entire post - I may have.
--- Quote ---no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
--- End quote ---
NetHack has intrinsics which are needed, [almost] period, to win the game, so that's not entirely true. Maybe "items" aren't needed, but there are other aspects to consider.
--- Quote from: nokturnal on January 03, 2007, 17:26 ---now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later...
--- End quote ---
You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.
However: this's exactly the reason I wan't massive playability with a single char - Pandemonium (infinite, rerolled "dungeon" with an extremely high level of risk) is the part of LDC you can just keep playing, (because I don't like the "she won, she's done" approach - I like having a char I sweated through to pit against powerful enemies over and over again, or weak ones just for show - I've earned it). Problem with Pandemonium is that it can get so tough at times, that it isn't really ment to be replayed that much - any char has its weak spot which is bound to be exploited badly in there, and some Pandemonium levels are practically auto-defeat, plus there's no easier spot to play that way if you're anywhere under a certain bar (negative energy, torment, hellfire and energy blasts *will* get the best of them sooner or later). The Abyss isn't much to compare, because from my experience it's only worse.
I LIKE collecting items (and spells), and playing god on lesser beings. That's why I imported a char from BGII:ToB into BGII:SoA (I just noticed - ToB=(S+1)o(A+1). Heh). A mage of that status's just plain fun!
That's nothing to do with balance - I'm just plain sadistic :P
And neither does mid-game restart, if that IS the method of balancing.
This is about gaming style - not *if* we wan't a good game but *how* we want a good game.
Some of us like it force-stream-lined and some of us like it freestyled, but I think we all agree we want a game not too easily beaten.
So I still say we just need both modes!!!
Since we've concluded (AFAIR) that scoring's based on an honour system, if someone beats the hardcore mode, he'll boast that, and if someone rampages through Diablo's halls as an ubermensch and wants to describe the story as a role-played massacre (which I like alot), so be it. If someone farms the normal mode and boasts as hardcore, screw him. The scoring system can also include a restart-counter for each game played.
But that's just on the matter of restartability.
I'm all against savegames ^^
And that's 'cause I'm also just plain masochistic :P
Seriously, now, that's just not for a roguelike.
nokturnal:
--- Quote ---YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.
--- End quote ---
yeah, you obviously havent played d2 lately, what i've been trying to say all the time is that you dont need ONE SPECIFIC ITEM, i.e "the holy bat of milk" of whatever, in d2. what you do need is items with STATS that suits your specific class and build. this CAN be achieved by farming bosses for super-uniques, but it can just aswell be achieved by collecting rare items, which are totally randomized. which was my point, and which i also love hacking away to find. i've played dungeon crawl lots of times, and the randomization of items there is a joke compared to diablo really.
the fact that i said that i love to spend hours on finding items i still stand by. this IS what diablo is about!! the game is long enough as it is without loads of hours restarting...
--- Quote ---My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:
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its funny how yall have such a clear idea of how a diablorl should look like, since you obviously dont know how diablo(2) really works, again it's the stats your'e after, and rare items are randomized so you really cant collect the same one twice..
(rare items was not in d1, i know, but since kornel hinted they will make diablorl, its still relevant i think)
--- Quote ---You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game
--- End quote ---
have i ever stated this? i even said previously that i could agree with and 'upped base' for finding special items. i just want an RL of the diablo games to stay true to the essence of diablo..
--- Quote ---You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.
--- End quote ---
actually i have played it several hours, and also been really close to some wall punching :P. diablo is a quite lighthearted, casual, easy-to-get into rpg.and this is also one point why i want a non-permadeath mode. call it kiddie mode, adventure mode whatever.
when i play an RL, i'm after a true strategic challenge, like you say 'nothing more rewarding than' beating it (not that i have).
this is not the case when i play d2 however, its more of a lighthearted thing i do for enjoyment and relaxation.
on hell its hard enough as it is, which is fine, but adding permadeath as a mandatory thing would totally destroy the diablo experience for me.
since were never gonna agree on this, i'll try to summarize my points on this. i'd want a diablorl that:
1. is as focused on items as the originals
2. have 3 difficulties like the original (the restarting thing.. doesnt matter how that turns out imo)
3. has modes both for permadeath and without, ..like d2
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