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Author Topic: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO  (Read 12600 times)

VANDAM

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 08:57 »

Jeez, people should really chill out on the whole Dragonslayer issue -_-.
You can make another ultimate secret or x of them. And DS won't be alone anymore.
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skarczew

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 09:10 »

First off, was pointing out that now that I know how to, I couldn't due to the challenge=further frustration that it has caused me (look at my previous posts related to it).
And second, I like to fully understand a game after playing it for so long, yet there's hardly any info on the wiki other than does "Tons of Damage and perma-zerk". SOOOOOORRY if I had to go elsewhere to get that info since the mods make sure that the requirements don't become common knowledge.
Now please do me a favor and take your attitude elsewhere.
I am ok with taking my attitude elsewhere, but please note:

1. Difficulty is there for people who are doing crazy things with the game. Can't be easier, or we would have yet-another-modern-game-where-everyone-and-their-mothers-can-savescumm-to-get-all-the-rewards-possible-or-sth.
2. Lots of really good players (better than me) found DS few times before finding a way to pick it up.
3. There are people that know the game for years and haven't got DS in their hands (including my humble and great persona).
4. You started it, feel the pain of feedback :P .

Peace =) .
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thelaptop

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 10:07 »

Shifted to the DoomRL forum since it is more on DoomRL than anything else.

Thanks to Game_Hunter for reminding my sleep-deprived brain of what I can do.  =)
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IronBeer

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 10:43 »

I just want to put in a quick word about my experiences with the Dragonslayer and how I managed to wield it (don't worry, I won't spoil the conditions). First time I saw it, naturally I couldn't figure out how to pick it up. It was disappointing, but I moved on. After that, however, I started doing a little legwork. There's a couple dozen mortems posted on CF that feature DS-wielding characters, and I began looking for common traits among those mortems. When I ran across another Dragonslayer (much later) my initial ideas on the wield conditions weren't quite right, but a few more semi-educated guesses saw my character finally brandishing the mighty blade.

tl;dr, With a little research and thought, anybody should be able to figure out how to pick up the DS.
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Tormuse

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 13:19 »

@Cheesybox, regarding attitude, the last (and only) time I complained about difficulty in DoomRL, someone told me I deserved to die.  You got off easy.  ;)

And as for the original topic, I forgot to mention that in AoPc, closing doors behind you (C key) is surprisingly helpful in avoiding taking damage.

tl;dr, With a little research and thought, anybody should be able to figure out how to pick up the DS.

Hmmm...  I've heard this before...  I've looked through old mortems and still haven't figured it out...  Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle?  I dunno...  I've had a couple people privately offer to help me, but I'd still like to figure it out on my own.

*Tormuse goes off to ponder for a while...*
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Game Hunter

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 13:34 »

For example, Angel of Pacifism. I've gotten to level 12 or 13 on that. I understand that they're supposed to be a challenge mode or whatever, but some of them aren't even possible. Like there is no way you can beat AoPc or AoH on anything higher than HMP without save scumming or breaking the game in some fashion. I like a good challenge but I don't like trying to turn a concrete building into gravel with my forehead.
A lot of this depends on what you're looking for in a challenge. Sometimes the challenge is to wait for the right game to give you a break (more often, wait for a game to not give you a literally-unwinnable situation) and, until then, play as best as you can as a matter of practice. Maybe you think the difficulty stepladder is too steep? I actually went directly from HNTR to UV without once touching HMP, and didn't play ITYTD until beating HNTR anyway (which only took a few weeks' worth of slightly-less-than-casual time). I do understand your point, especially for challenges like Angel of Pacifism, where a large part of the game depends on you doing basic actions and the game restricting those very actions. That's why I removed the Pacifism Platinum and Diamond badges (and reduced the difficulty for Bronze-Gold): trying to make a reward for something as unbalanced as that mode was ridiculous, so I went in the direction of "easy with tight conditions". In general, I'd like to make it so that all of the badges are in the vicinity of feasible, given decent rolls in generation and tactical and strategic know-how. We're probably not there quite yet, but I imagine that most of the hardcore players have noticed that the Diamond series is easier.

Regarding the balance of specific challenges on specific difficulties, it's actually a developer decision to affect the game as little as possible when introducing new challenges. For instance, other than Hell's Area, there are almost no instances where a specific challenge affects monster or item placement in special levels. It's not like we remove all ranged weapons in Angel of Berserk or all powerups in Angel of Purity, simply because the player has no use for them: the challenges are explicitly intended to restrict the player, sometimes to the point of being unfair. So it's probably not even a matter of subjectivity, this game is just downright mean to you with certain settings. As long as we're not asking the player to do these things most of the time, I think that's okay, especially here in the roguelike community.

In short, if you're playing with a challenge and difficulty combination that you find too unenjoyable, I would recommend not to play it. There are tons of ways to play this game (which will increase dramatically next version) but it's up to you to find what ways you enjoy.

You can make another ultimate secret or x of them. And DS won't be alone anymore.
For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
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thelaptop

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 13:40 »

For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
Stop stringing them on unnecessarily...

* thelaptop rolls eyes
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VANDAM

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 14:27 »

For all you guys know, there ARE some new ultimate secrets, and nobody's found them yet. I'm not spoiling anything though...
0.9.9.6? You got to be kidding me. what's the worst that could happen? I found DS BA Apo and it was rather easy, also, there is a bug, if you go to JC and you use BA on 26 level, you will fight with JC and still, after killing him, there will be UW ending without killing Apo. I think, that this is unfair. About ultimate secrets: maybe this is based on 4 Diamond badges that i haven't acquired yet? And, btw, what's the AoMC bug on N!? I won with untouchable cross and haven't received diamond badge.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 14:38 by VANDAM »
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Cheesybox

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2012, 14:48 »

I like extreme difficulties, but not in the sense that they require luck. Some of these challenges feel like the RNG has to set things up a certain way before you any hope of going though it. I know, I know roguelike and all, but it (and I think it's been done in the normal game) shouldn't be "certain things must happen to be able to win" and more "certain things must happen to make it unwinnable" minus player skill.

As for the DS, just look at my previous attempts/posts. My only issue is that there is no way from just playing the game to figure out how to use it unless you get lucky and meet the requirements. That turns into trial-and-error which to me is not cool in the slightest. I also wouldn't be so bitter about it if it weren't for the fact that despite my pleading years ago about the DS, this community basically told me to go suck a dick. I won't spill the beans here since this post will just get deleted and I'll face the wrath of people (like skarczew there). I kinda like the secret nature of it but I don't like how aggressive people are about keeping that secret.

Edit: Forgot there was a DoomRL specific discussion page. Thanks for moving it GH, you're always keeping my stuff in check haha (you moved a Ao100 YAVP I did a while back too)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 14:52 by Cheesybox »
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VANDAM

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2012, 15:05 »


As for the DS, just look at my previous attempts/posts. My only issue is that there is no way from just playing the game to figure out how to use it unless you get lucky and meet the requirements.
I can say that on N! you can easily farm DS and BA, and it's much easier to guess conditions while farming.
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thelaptop

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2012, 16:16 »

Edit: Forgot there was a DoomRL specific discussion page. Thanks for moving it GH, you're always keeping my stuff in check haha (you moved a Ao100 YAVP I did a while back too)
GH didn't do that... it was me...

* thelaptop pouts because credit was given wrongly
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AlterAsc

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2012, 16:22 »

Easily? If i understand the conditions for DS to appear then it's nearly impossible to get it spawn unless you're used to this kind of mad restriction.

In the end though i saw DS through all my games(and it's quite a number) only once, so luckily i don't suffer much from not knowing how to pick it up.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 16:24 by AlterAsc »
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skarczew

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2012, 17:14 »

I also wouldn't be so bitter about it if it weren't for the fact that despite my pleading years ago about the DS, this community basically told me to go suck a dick. I won't spill the beans here since this post will just get deleted and I'll face the wrath of people (like skarczew there).
Some people do not like to have their games spoilt - this applies to the secrets they want to discover on their own.
And I am really happy you cannot find the solution on this forum.

Roguelikes can't be too easy, thats the principle.
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VANDAM

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2012, 17:38 »

Easily? If i understand the conditions for DS to appear then it's nearly impossible to get it spawn unless you're used to this kind of mad restriction.

In the end though i saw DS through all my games(and it's quite a number) only once, so luckily i don't suffer much from not knowing how to pick it up.
There was a hint already: DS N! btw, don't forget to conquer some levels... If you know what I mean.
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Cheesybox

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Re: This game's difficulty is a bit off in places IMO
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2012, 18:34 »

GH didn't do that... it was me...

* thelaptop pouts because credit was given wrongly
Whoops. Sho nuff. Thought GH moved it since he's done it before and I saw you mention his name haha. THANKS LAPPY :D

Some people do not like to have their games spoilt - this applies to the secrets they want to discover on their own.
And I am really happy you cannot find the solution on this forum.

And I get that. Each community has it's inside jokes and whatever. What I didn't like again, was the aggressive backlash I got on one of my posts for asking (before the thread was deleted IIRC. This was also before the conditions were changed). And I don't mind being spoiled if I can't figure something out without resorting to trial-and-error since I don't find T&E compelling game design. The only "hint" I've gotten about it is that it's simple. "Simple" could mean a lot in this game but alas, the only place for information about this game is here. I just happened to get lucky with the SA forums (which apparently is wrong anyway according to another postee)
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