DRL > Requests For Features
Allow saving in N!
Matt_S:
Source code can be edited in pretty much any way imaginable.
yaflhdztioxo:
Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult. You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.
Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves. That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.
Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released. This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation. If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it. But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.
As far as attack venues are concerned, save scumming is the easiest and most common method that almost everyone with basic knowledge of file systems comes up with on their own. Freezing a variable in memory is more involved; it requires using a second program and searching for useful addresses, but if you know what to use and how to use it it's not very hard either. Anything involving editing the binary or the source code would require a great deal more skill, and I generally say the reverse engineers are having fun playing a game of IDA. From the cheating perspective the first and possibly second scenario are the only two worth guarding against. You mostly just want to throw enough barriers to aggravate the casual cheater.
But all of that's moot because we're not trying to protect against cheating, at least I don't think so. People save scum. I know this. Everyone knows this. It's given a wink and a nod all throughout the roguelike community. We just want to screw with you, the player, on Nightmare. Because we are evil. And Nightmare isn't even remotely fair.
>)
Matt_S:
--- Quote from: yaflhdztioxo on February 24, 2013, 22:13 ---Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult. You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.
--- End quote ---
Ehh, putting it back in is actually the easiest step of the process, though I don't want to give details on how to do it. Editing things like enemy stats, items, or traits is extremely easy.
--- Quote from: yaflhdztioxo on February 24, 2013, 22:13 ---Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves. That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.
--- End quote ---
It's probably not common, but it is pretty easy if people wanted to do it for DoomRL. It takes a single line change to make hellrunner give a -95% speed boost. I think a non-programmer could figure out how to do it.
--- Quote from: yaflhdztioxo on February 24, 2013, 22:13 ---Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released. This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation. If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it. But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.
--- End quote ---
If people are savescumming, it won't be our DoomRL either. But if we're going to ignore the cheating potential like you suggest, then it just comes down to DoomRL being a dick because it can be. Not the "haha you're dead" kind of dick, but the "haha you have to leave your computer on for 24 hours" kind of dick.
Ironically enough, unless I missed it, the part that blocks N! saves isn't in the lua code, so that would actually be one of the harder things to hack.
yaflhdztioxo:
Well, sorear injected the patched files back into memory if I recall correctly after building his own improved Lua decompiler. Everyone else who tried used luadec and built a wad creator/extractor. Neither method is trivial or easy, and if you know of a simpler way I'd like to hear about it.
Fanta Hege:
I'm gonna give my opinion on this:
Normal N! games do not need save feature, you should be able to handle 25 levels in one sitting.
However..
I do think that Ao100 and the varitations could seriously do with save feature on N!.
Grinds are not fun in one run, people need to have breaks every now and then.
No, leaving your computer running/leaving the program running in the background is not a valid solution, that just hogs resources for nothing.
Remember, this is a video game for gods sake, challenge and fun are what you're most likely playing this for, the latter being a bigger thing.
Unable to save does not fall under either gategory. It's just bad design taking note for the length.
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