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Author Topic: Jackhammer with MAc?  (Read 12519 times)

Sereg

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Jackhammer with MAc?
« on: June 04, 2013, 12:53 »

So, before I post this in bug reports(it seems like a lot of my recent ones aren't actually considered bugs >.>), I'll ask here first:

Why does Triggerhappy work with the Jackhammer, but Ammochain doesn't?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 13:08 by Sereg »
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LuckyDee

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 14:12 »

Because it's not a rapidfire weapon? GCB benefits from TH as well, but I'm putting my money on MAc not entering the picture there, either.
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 14:27 »

But... it is a rapid fire weapon? It fires multiple rounds in succession? Isn't that the definition of a rapid fire weapon?

I've never actually used GCB, but I have some experience with the BFG 10k, and I don't really see a fundamental difference in how those work. Per my knowledge, BFG 10K does in fact benefit from MAc.
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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 14:33 »

Per my knowledge, BFG 10K does in fact benefit from MAc.

Could be, though I would be amazed. See this.

GCB is a pistol you can switch to semi- and full-auto modes. Hence the TH-but-not-MAc construction.
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Uranium

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 14:37 »

Perhaps it's because you can't chainfire?
That would be the logical reason, the balance reason is (probably) that the Jackhammer is pretty powerful already, its main drawback is the ammo consumption. You'll probably have to wait for official reasoning from the dev(s), these are just what I think are the most likely explanations.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 14:58 »

Jackhammer is classified as a shotgun. That's why MAc has no effect on it.
Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 16:33 »

Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.

Yep. That was my experience with it that I referred to earlier =P
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skarczew

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 08:29 »

Jackhammer is classified as a shotgun. That's why MAc has no effect on it.
Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.
That's simply stupid ... Jackhammer uses tons of shells and is usually not very viable for a typical shottie run.
It uses even more shells with Triggerhappy, which makes it a bad weapon, imho.
I don't see why it could not be compatible with MAc, which would make it a good weapon, at last.
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 08:57 »

Yeah, with two levels of TH, it can only be fired twice before reload, and the second burst isn't even at full power. Kind of defeats the purpose of a rapidfire weapon, and it means that the only rapidfire shotgun is actually less effective for rapidfire builds, which... makes no sense. It's not necessarily the ammo cost that's a problem, because I'm not inclined to use it enough to get low on ammo because of that first point. Additionally, it has fewer effective applications then a more traditional burst weapon - unless my target is pinned to a wall, the knockback from so many successive shotgun blasts will push it far out of range by the time I fire the second burst. (If it is pinned to a wall, then yes, it dies. But it's nice to have a few weapons with niche uses, and making a rare unique weapon benefit from an uncommon build path that should affect it anyway doesn't seem like it's going to break the game balance to me.)

Perhaps it's because you can't chainfire?

Let's add a chainfire function, then? ;) Maybe 2/3/4? That'd work for the non-MAc version, as well, and it would only add an additional round per burst to the full power MAc chainfiring, which doesn't seem too OP - certainly much less of an increase then for most chainfiring weapons.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 09:02 by Sereg »
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 15:24 »

I now consider Jackhammer is a rather bad weapon (wastes too much shells, not efficient for cornershooting... only usable in a few situations, like killing shamblers sticked to a wall in HA)
TH doesn't help, ofc.

On MAC builds, it would be just too powerful... 5 shells at the cost of one ? ... are you serious ?
Adding chainfire to it, tough, would be useless. 2/3/4 means it wouldn't fire faster unless you're MAC (you'd need to reload too fast), so the only use would be to spare some ammo. Maybe just add an alternate fire (the curren one, firing 3 shells), and make it's default attack a normal one ?

That would make it better (even if I'm aware it's not the worse weapon atm...)
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skarczew

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 04:10 »

On MAC builds, it would be just too powerful... 5 shells at the cost of one ? ... are you serious ?
Adding chainfire to it, tough, would be useless. 2/3/4 means it wouldn't fire faster unless you're MAC (you'd need to reload too fast), so the only use would be to spare some ammo. Maybe just add an alternate fire (the curren one, firing 3 shells), and make it's default attack a normal one ?
Maybe too powerful, but making MAc build just for one shotgun sounds like a ...you know.
On the other side, it still got very small ammo magazine, and has drawbacks explained earlier in the previous posts.

And if you say that it is too powerful, then what would you say about modded Plasma Rifle, or Hyperblaster?
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Sereg

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 08:43 »

Heh... those are nothing. You should have seen the F2N1S1T1 laser rifle I was rolling with the other day(until I found a nightmare arachnotron cave >.<) - one burst for all normal enemies, two for big nightmares and shamblers/lava elementals.

Essentially, MAc will already result in monstrously powerful items. Adding one more, which can't be N modded, can only be used at close range, and most effective if the target is pinned, isn't going to break anything, especially when that item has very limited uses without MAc(meaning, at all, right now). It's also worth noting, as skarczew mentioned, that no one will be building MAc just for jackhammer, unless it spawns very, very early. If they find it in addition to a MAc build, nice for them. So is a nuclear plasma rifle. So is a laser rifle. So is a minigun. So is a nano pack. So is a firestorm pack. If they find it without the MAc build, then it will be no different then it is right now.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 12:58 »

Maybe too powerful, but making MAc build just for one shotgun sounds like a ...you know.

I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.

I agree, modded plasma rifles and hyperblaster are insane, especially with unlimited ammo, but I quit them for a scout build currently.
Intuition seems better than MAc to me when you don't have 2devination skills to locate monsters.

Heh... those are nothing. You should have seen the F2N1S1T1 laser rifle I was rolling with the other day
You're comparing an Ao666 weapon with a regular drop...
Sure, I prefer my usual S2B3 nuclear plasma rifles to most unique weapons, but one of the major difference caracterizing uniques is that they are powerful right out-of-the-box !
No need to wait for a ton of stupid mods to use them... just take a shell box, and your Jackhammer will pwn asses
I don't think Jackhammer is a bad weapon. For me, it just consumes too much shells, but it's still great for AoSh, and certainly also as a big area damage dealer, for some uses.
I personally prefer regular shotguns, but I wouldn't say it suck, really. It deals insane damages. I just see it as a situationnal weapon.
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skarczew

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 14:00 »

I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.
But the thing is, almost nobody would make MAc on AoSh.
Simple A2 modded Plasma Rifle would hit often enough to outdamage Jackhammer. Add more mods, traits, damage drop due to a range, armor (should I mention that plasma is better for this?), bigger magazine ...

Quote
Sure, I prefer my usual S2B3 nuclear plasma rifles to most unique weapons, but one of the major difference caracterizing uniques is that they are powerful right out-of-the-box !
No need to wait for a ton of stupid mods to use them... just take a shell box, and your Jackhammer will pwn asses
I tried it once in CoS. I had to switch to Elephant Gun and Plasma Rifle because Jack ate 3 shell boxes. True story.

Quote
I don't think Jackhammer is a bad weapon. For me, it just consumes too much shells, but it's still great for AoSh, and certainly also as a big area damage dealer, for some uses.
I personally prefer regular shotguns, but I wouldn't say it suck, really. It deals insane damages. I just see it as a situationnal weapon.
"Something is not bad." "I use other stuff anyway." <-- I see some contradiction here :P

Arena Master's Staff is not bad. It is just a situational equipment too.
And for some reason people want to change it, too. Why? Because it is situational?
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Klear

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Re: Jackhammer with MAc?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 14:28 »

Jackhammer really shines in those late levels packed with nothing but formers. I once got three such levels in a row. It was awesome!
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