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A stack of questions.

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ZicherCZ:
Well, in AoMr you _are_ pretty much tied to SoG, and as I mentioned - this was a MSs point of view. MSs prevents DG, so that would be a moot point anyway.
Of course, there's little point in taking SoG3 if you're not a Tech, DG is way preferable for earlier master trait. But that's not a question of a char that just arrives to the Arena anyway.

Aki:

--- Quote from: ZicherCZ on September 29, 2013, 04:20 ---Well, in AoMr you _are_ pretty much tied to SoG, and as I mentioned - this was a MSs point of view. MSs prevents DG, so that would be a moot point anyway.
Of course, there's little point in taking SoG3 if you're not a Tech, DG is way preferable for earlier master trait. But that's not a question of a char that just arrives to the Arena anyway.

--- End quote ---

Yeah but I was talking about other builds and other traits.

2birds1stone:
A lot of challenges tie you to a trait, and if they don't, there's generally still a small number of options which are clearly better than the rest. Angel of Shotgunnery, while probably quite doable without Reloader, is going to be substantially harder (sure, you can take SoB3 for guaranteed knockback, and Finesse to offset your reload time, but this simply does not come close to the ability to move-reload).

Angel of Marksmanship ties you to SoG, because when you can only use pistols, SoG becomes Finesse and SoB rolled into the one trait; it is two traits for the price of one. All three pistol masteries seem too good to ignore, but I suppose that if you went the Dualgunner route, you could exclusively buy SoG, SoB, and Fin for masterless.

Aki:

--- Quote from: 2birds1stone on September 29, 2013, 17:52 ---A lot of challenges tie you to a trait, and if they don't, there's generally still a small number of options which are clearly better than the rest. Angel of Shotgunnery, while probably quite doable without Reloader, is going to be substantially harder (sure, you can take SoB3 for guaranteed knockback, and Finesse to offset your reload time, but this simply does not come close to the ability to move-reload).

Angel of Marksmanship ties you to SoG, because when you can only use pistols, SoG becomes Finesse and SoB rolled into the one trait; it is two traits for the price of one. All three pistol masteries seem too good to ignore, but I suppose that if you went the Dualgunner route, you could exclusively buy SoG, SoB, and Fin for masterless.

--- End quote ---

Hm, okay. Let me explain what I mean now that i'm thinking a little clearer.

By "not being tied into one build" what I was really saying was "tied into one master trait". For example, you can do AoB with MVm, MMB, or MBm all with around the same amount of success. Likewise, you can do AoSh with MSh, MAD, and MFa all with around the same amount of success. By relying on MSs to stack corpses and get the advantage early-game I feel like it'd be an unnecessary crutch and would make playing on N! with other builds more difficult, then anything.

What I was referring to about the SoG/DG thing was whether it was worth taking SoGx3 then DG -> HRx2 -> DM -> MGk (as an example) for the advantage earlier on, and in retrospect it's probably not worth it.

I will add in one question though about nightmare - How are you supposed to complete special levels and challenges like the Anomaly with the nightmare monsters added in? For example, the Anomoly - around 30 Nightmare imps, cacos, and demons that respawn and have extra movespeed is a tall ask at that stage of the game unless you get very lucky with the RNG. What would be the best method of doing this without relying on the RNG? Keeping in mind that doing the Arena isn't always practical - especially on challenge modes. There has to be some way that you can minimize the impact of the RNG. And the Halls of Carnage for example - One column per 2 seconds and 14 nightmare cacodemons instead of lost skulls? When I ran it on UV with pistols one-hitting them with like 0.3s firing time, the lava still nearly caught up to me. I don't get it.

2birds1stone:
I would think that N! AoMr would be completable with MGK and MBD, though I haven't managed N! AoMr myself. MSs is probably the best of the pistol traits (at the cost of a difficult early game), but I can't see why MGK wouldn't be viable, especially given that respawning formers and imps become free reloads. I've got no experience with MBD, but it'd certainly deal with tanky enemies if they're a problem for you (holy shit, can you empty an entire GCB clip in one burst with extra shots coming from both Triggerhappy and MBD?)

The Anomoly requires lucky phasing or enough movespeed that you can get to safety before making your shots. As for Halls of Carnage, I think your best bet is a shotgun; I wouldn't be going there in N! AoMr (that's not to say it's impossible, just that it's meant to be difficult).

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