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Balancing Assemblies

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Evilpotatoe:
Dodging is not fully useless, of course, it lets you reposition or flee to the stairs, among other things. (I go for 100%, but not everyone does !  And think of AoPc, btw :)
But I don't think it works as intended initially.
Shottyman or gun-kata were probably designed to be used with a more "doomish" playstyle, running fast though monsters, shooting everything as you go (gunrunner-style), while dodging attacks.
With unpredictable attacks and the need to stop for shooting, it can't work :)
about the dodging mechanics :
Someone correct me if necessary, but the "dodging" HR improves is when you actually move, making monsters shoot at your previous position.  "dodge" from running is a malus to enemy's to-hit, which works whether you move or not.
in other words, HR works when you move (eh... normal, right ?), while running protects you even if you stand shooting.  Btw, another exploit is that running also decreases your to-hit... which doesn't affect your shotgun at all :D


Forgot about the 6d3 shotty xD.  Looks like a "funny" idea to me.  See my comment about nano-shrapnel for more details :p
My preferred shotty remains the standard (ideally T2P3).  You should try it, an elephant gun without the unusable reload time is sweet ! (btw, the lack of magazine is rarely an issue, since you always get enough knockback when cornershooting, and I usually have 2 or 3 unused shell boxes for the (really exceptionnal) situations where I would need fast reload.)

@armors : are you aware that nanofiber doesn't cripple movespeed anymore ? It still sucks imo, but I think infinite durabilité must have some cost.  I would only remove the resistance nerf, but would keep the "armor value" nerf.
The reason why you are not pressured about armor durability is always the same : it's because you don't get hit enough :)
I wouldn't buff onyx as it is. Its the game's 2nd useful rare mod :p  I'd rather nerf nano, and improve firestorm so that it gets some use other than Biggest fucking guns (which are sort of vapor-weapon-ware : fantastic, but will never happen :)

@Tormuse:
Ha, I'm not the only one failing at switching weapons xD.
Too bad :(  While the fact that you had nearly got your mastery is a demonstration in itself, dying just before makes the "gunrunner demo" quite... pointless, I'd say.  I share your pain, it's what one really calls YASD !

Shoop da Whoop:
Okay, this one is not about any particular assemblies (top 10 and bottom 10 and all that), this is about assemblies in general. Or, to call it, "Inherent Problems With Assemblies".

Well, let's just do the math. For simplicity's sake, let it be just about weapons.
Let's assume we're combining just standart mods: PABT. Using a concept known as "combinations with repetitions", we get the following number of potential assembly recipes, without listing:
2 mods - 5!/(2!*3!) = 10;
3 mods - 6!/(3!*3!) = 20;
4 mods - 7!/(4!*3!) = 35.

And if we add back F, N and S mods, we get the following:
2 mods - 8!/(2!*6!) = 28;
3 mods - 9!/(3!*6!) = 84 (!);
4 mods - 10!/(4!*6!) = 210 (!!).

How many recipes do we actually have, again? I'm not even filtering them by type, let's compare. Basic: 19 of 28 possibilities (good); advanced: 14 of 84 possibilities (1/6th of them all); master: 7 for 210 possibilities (1/30th of them all).

That's pretty painful and risky for an average player: to sacrifice two levels for Whizkid 2 (and two more if he's not Technician), and then gamble if he's assumingly fair and doesn't know the schematics - which can, you see, possibly appear in Armory/Deimos Lab. Oh, they didn't appear? Tough luck, try again.

Incorrect solution: adding 150 more schematics. Been there, seen that (hello to Diablo 2 mods).

But wait, we haven't even started! How hard is to aquire a master assembly?
Let's, again, assume, that average player finds 4 to 6 mods during the game. Numbers are obviously arbitrary, that's not the point here. Also, let's revert to the "base" PABT four.
Let's assume that player wants to make a Tartar Tommygun, which requires each of PABT. Possibility of a mod spawning is 1/4, so for n mods we get 4n outcomes. Will the player find necessary mods? It depends. This is the place where you have to trust me without in-depth explanation, but it will be like this:
4 mods found - 4!/44 = 3/32 probability to create;
5 mods found - (4*5!/2!)/45 = 15/64 > 6/64 = 3/32;
6 mods found - (4*6!/3! + 6*6!/(2!*2!))/46 = 195/512 > 120/512 = 15/64, etc.

Let's assume now that player wants to make Hellish Heatray, which requires PPPP. In the same conditions, we get:
4 mods found - 1/44 = 1/256 probability to create;
5 mods found - (1 + 3*5!/4!)/45 = 15/256;
6 mods found - (1 + 3*6!/5! + 4*6!/(4!*2!) + 6*6!/4!)/46 = 259/4096 > 240/4096 = 15/256, etc (note: 259/4096 ≈ 6.3%).

Those were extreme cases (the most and the least available combos), and the former is 24 to about 6 times more easier to assemble than the latter, and such unequality persists even one collects a dozen or more mods. Seriously, on what occasion would one make a Hellish Heatray instead of, like, an elephant gun and some enhanced armor, for example?

Incorrect solution: make mods spawn more often. Then you get 5 bulk mods in a row and still no Hellish Heatray.


So, what to do? Even though I'm not a roguelike programmer, I can pretend that I am and thus set the following "goals" for assemblies-as-they-should-be:

* no list bloating;
* basic -> advanced -> master ladder should be shallower and more accessible (easier to discover);
* slap everything on your gun!
There wouldn't be any sense going into such lengths without proposing some solution, so here it is: mod padding.
For example, biggest fucking gun which is BBFF becomes FF~~, where ~ is absolutely any mod. Nano-shrapnel becomes NP~. Of course, you lose their properties after the assembly - but isn't that's how it works for all mods in the end anyway? There, of course, may be situations where a set of mods suffices several schematics at once (like, WYXZ fits both WX~~ and YZ~~), but since we already have prompts, so theoretically they can appear one after another in some order.

In conclusion, with "mod padding":

* there are just about 20 assemblies on each level (not like we have that much yet, but anyway);
* easier to stumble upon and less dependant on random, while still requiring two essential mods;
* way less "stray" mods in inventory / left on the floor.
Now about "what to do with nano-, onyx- and sniper- and firestorm packs". Well, for example, we can treat them as double ("two-slot") mods, so instead of NFPPT plasma you get "just" NFP. Then abovementioned examples become, respectively, "FF" and "NP", while staying on the same level; within 2-3-4 progression some "basic" things will have to move up though.

If going for "complete overhaul", one can give a normal player 2 slots on a weapon, 4 to a Whizkid 1 and 6 to a Whizkid 2 (2-3-4 for armors, or leaving onyx "1 slot" for that purpose? No clues here). ...6 is still twice as less as 12, isn't it?


This has been a long rant, so hopefully it will be of some use.

raekuul:
I respect your ideas and like some of them, but part of the problem is that the assemblies themsevles tend toward being "not worth using in place of the non-assembled mod combo."

Let's take the Biggest Fucking Gun as an example, starting from a basic BFG9000 (information taken from the chaosforge wiki, which may be out of date)

A BFG9000 holds 100 power cells, and uses 40 cells per shot. Bulk mods increase clip size by 30%.
(100 * 1.3) * 1.3 = 169 Cells - 4 shots without having to reload.

A BFG9000 has a blast radius of 8. Firestorm mods increase blast radius by 2. In addition, BFG9000 Blasts are chained blasts - entities other than the player caught in the blast create an explosion of their own (though I don't know if Firestorm applies to these chained blasts as well).

With 1 firestorm mod, that initial blast has a radius of 10.

We can't add the 2nd firestorm mod without being prompted for the Biggest Fucking Gun. According to the wiki, chamber size and damage are based on the original gun. Assuming that's off of the BBF BFG9000 and not the unmodded one, then BFG9000 -> Biggest Fucking Gun should hold 422 power cells, use 100 power cells per shot, have blast radius 16 and a damage roll of 20d12.

Unassembled: 4 shots between reloads, blast radius 12. Damage roll is 10d6
Theoretical Assembled: 4 shots between reloads, blast radius 16. Damage roll is 20d12

That theoretical assembly is drool-worthy, but there are a few issues with it.

1) Who the hell has 400 power cells at once?
2) On MAc games, Firestorm is more helpful on plasma rifles because of +2 shots from the mod plus +2 from the two required TH levels.

On non-MAc games, the Biggest Fucking Gun would probably be useful as a power cell storage unit, but I don't see burning 100 power cells at once to be useful at all.

And of course, if the actual doesn't hold 422 power cells, there's really no point in firing it because you're trading chamber size for damage. (Still useful as a power cell chest though)

E: And of course, certain builds can't make advanced/master assemblies - Gunrunner (Scout general) explicitly blocks it, and Army of the Dead (Marine shotgun) blocks the prerequisite. (Entrenchment blocks Finesse but Technicians get Whizkid regardless)

Evilpotatoe:
While your first sentence kinda sums up what I think about assemblies, you could (very easily) have picked a better example :)

Don't understimate the Biggest fucking gun, it's awesome !  Impossible to craft, of course, but still Awesome.

The numbers are pretty good : 2*dices and 2*sides, which means approximately 4* damages, at the exceptionnal rate of only 2.5*cost (call now and save 37.5% !).  Also, it doesn't cripple the weapon's magazine.  It devours a ridiculous quantity of ammo, but a regular BFG still keeps his 2.5 shots ammo supply, which makes it usable (...once crafted).
A nuclear BFG, with an average dmg of 28 skyrockets to 104 once modded. 104 !
A regular BFG is probably even more fun, with 130 average AND 2.5 shots in its battery.

Note that since it also doubles the radius, you can clear a third of the level with one shot, and reasonably assume you'll have enough time for your nuclear (or N modded) gun to recharge before you see a baddy again.
If you choose a non-nuclear BFG and mod it with something else (Which I guess would be B, unless you *really* prefer to add yet another F), you'll need to find some ammo after a shot, that's true.... but on the other hand, it's not supposed to be your main weapon !  It has to be kept for exceptionnal / desesparate situations, in which it works like a charm.

Trust me, one-shoting shamblers can produce a hell of fun (and make fun of hell).  I agree that this thing is quite unnecessary in reaching the goal of completing the game, but honestly, while I always keep one when I can, I merely never use BFG, modded or not, since they already consume too much ammo (and destroy stuff (and covers (and bareels...))).

It works incredibly well as a side weapon to clear huge annoying groups and spiders quickly.
Give it a try ! See attached savefile for afree trial : Biggest funning gun.  (and register before 15th april to get a free pair of antigrav A-modded phasehift boots, and a stainless steel Butcher's cleaver !)

raekuul:
Admittedly this is true, and destroying everything is fun at times. I just don't like using 100 ammo in one shot where 80 across two would do adequately well.

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