DRL > Requests For Features

Ammochain tweak

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Const:

--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 01, 2011, 09:28 --- MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem
--- End quote ---

How it's possible? Later game enemyes either don't carry ammo, or carry rockets, which are less useful. There are Arachs, but it's only 20 cells, and I need plasma to kill them. Where is ammo?


--- Quote ---I don't know for sure, but guessing from how he talks about MAc is sounds like Const has used it only on the easiest difficulties (ITYTD/HNTR).
--- End quote ---

Your guessing is wrong. Just finished UV standart, AoMC, AoLT, Ao100 and AoHaste, all with MAC.


--- Quote --- and if 80 cells aren't enough to handle a rough situation, I don't know what is.

--- End quote ---

Mortuary. 80 cells? Ha! MAC? Cleared it. Without BFG shots. UV. AoHaste game. You still thinks that it's not IDKFA trait?

Nameless:
Not that I've actually won N!, but I'll take an educated guess and say that ammmochain is much less useful there because a) you can abuse respawn to load up on ammo anyway and b) the faster / stronger enemies become much more difficult without damage or accuracy boosting traits. Even on UV, I would strongly argue that it's not overpowered and submit dozens of my own failed mortems as evidence to the point. There are some powerful tricks infinite ammo allows you, but no more than what you can get from properly utilising eg. Intuition 2 and DoomRL is still a difficult game with either of them.

Regarding nerfing it ... Taking out the 'infinite ammo' part would be render the trait basically useless. Reload time is barely an issue using rapidfire weapons, and there would be much easier ways to get around it. Trying to nerf it by forcing the player to reload from their portable hole wouldn't make much difference for the same reason. Changing the prereqs from Whizkid to Reloader would be effective, but ugly (useless traits). Blocking Iro instead of HR would be mildly effective and not ugly, but would make little difference for low-difficulty runs.

The idea of applying infinite ammo only to chainfire sounds pretty awesome; I would be all for this.

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: Const on April 02, 2011, 04:50 ---
--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 01, 2011, 09:28 ---MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem
--- End quote ---
How it's possible? Later game enemyes either don't carry ammo, or carry rockets, which are less useful. There are Arachs, but it's only 20 cells, and I need plasma to kill them. Where is ammo?
--- End quote ---
True, VMR packs will give you rockets at best. There's plenty of shells and bullets lying around, though, since there are also packs of Viles with formers (which allows for respawning ammo) and will supply just about anything else you could need. Cells are the only commodity, although with EE you'll have a much greater efficiency with the cells you find. Arach caves are always a positive gain in this regard (assuming you survive them).

I apologize for assuming you played on easier difficulties: most players tend to believe in MAc's uberness because they haven't attempted to use it when the game's difficulty spikes. Of the challenges you mention, A100 and AoLT almost require MAc (unless you've got a melee backup or are lucky enough to find a regenerator), and in AoMC there's little reason NOT to choose it because the only disadvantage, accuracy, is removed. Congrats on those victories, too: you should consider posting victory mortems here so we can understand your experience playing the game.


--- Quote from: Const on April 02, 2011, 04:50 ---Mortuary. 80 cells? Ha! MAC? Cleared it. Without BFG shots. UV. AoHaste game. You still thinks that it's not IDKFA trait?
--- End quote ---
Mortuary is an exception to the typical case of a "rough situation". You will not find a more ammo-consuming place in the entire game. With rockets and BFGs (read: w/o MAc) it's still very doable, especially if you picked up the missile launcher back at The Wall. On the other hand, 80 cells should deal with at least half an Arach cave (more than enough to find a place to reload), initial arena encounters, and big rooms of VMR (sans respawning), which is what I was alluding to.

Basically the point I'm trying to get at is that infinite ammo sounds really good on paper (and the inventory free-up is good always), but in practice you're sacrificing accuracy that can REALLY hurt later on. Originally when we discussed nerfing MAc I suggested that the real problem was not the trait but, rather, the guaranteed agility mods you find on the way down, thereby guaranteeing what I call the A2 Ammochain strategy. It's a little harder to pull off because of the new Chained Court layout but it's still too easy to do and does make it the rest of the game almost trivial. There are three ways to rectify this problem: change up the mods at CC (and maybe Armory), forbid modding with MAc (ie, block Fin/WK), or simply set a hard accuracy limit once you get MAc. Something else to think about, I guess.

At the moment we're looking into prereq. changes for MAc, similar to what you suggested, so we'll see how that goes.

ZZ:
Maybe don't block neither EE nor SoG after getting ammochain, but block HR and Iro, and add the following effect: when you fire any gun, your accuracy is +2. Always. No matter what you will add, what traits you will pick. The compensation - you can get Int2+MAc combo, which is quite powerful.

Const:

--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 02, 2011, 09:41 ---
True, VMR packs will give you rockets at best. There's plenty of shells and bullets lying around, though, since there are also packs of Viles with formers (which allows for respawning ammo) and will supply just about anything else you could need.
--- End quote ---

But it means that I must use weaker weapons, when with Ammochain I can plasma everything. And rockets - they destroy a loot (not counting other disadvantages), so they need a much more skill, than Ammochain.


--- Quote --- most players tend to believe in MAc's uberness because they haven't attempted to use it when the game's difficulty spikes.
--- End quote ---

My is a contrary - I failed to win UV without the trait.


--- Quote --- Congrats on those victories, too: you should consider posting victory mortems here so we can understand your experience playing the game.
--- End quote ---

Only problem - I have too much victories to post. But now, I post my Runner Gold, so you can see it.


--- Quote ---Mortuary is an exception to the typical case of a "rough situation". You will not find a more ammo-consuming place in the entire game.
--- End quote ---

Later UV levels have similar problems - Viles becames common anyway.


--- Quote ---On the other hand, 80 cells should deal with at least half an Arach cave (more than enough to find a place to reload), initial arena encounters, and big rooms of VMR (sans respawning),
--- End quote ---

So? Ammochaiin well handles such situations, anyway.


--- Quote --- but in practice you're sacrificing accuracy that can REALLY hurt later on.
--- End quote ---

Still don't see it. With pack of monsters, accuracy becomes less important.  You can miss one monster but still hit other. And in later game - agility mods are common, so why not do some modding?


--- Quote --- Originally when we discussed nerfing MAc I suggested that the real problem was not the trait but, rather, the guaranteed agility mods you find on the way down,
--- End quote ---

Again, they are common. Don't finding a single agility mod  in a middle-game= bad luck, anyway.

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