DRL > Requests For Features

Ammochain tweak

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AStranger:

--- Quote from: Const on March 31, 2011, 15:39 ---Average accuracy? Perhaps, but agility mods could fix it. And, they are very fast strong shots, don't underestimate it.

--- End quote ---
I'd say a chaingun has low accuracy and a plasma rifle has average accuracy for clarification. With ammochain you are trading accuracy (blocks EE) for infinite ammo. This can be fixed with agility mods, but then you are sacrificing either damage or firing speed in the form of having less mod slots to work with. This can be good sometimes, but bad others. I just feel the bad situations out weigh the good.


--- Quote from: Const on March 31, 2011, 15:39 ---BFG?

--- End quote ---
True, this one can be chalked up to my play style. I don't often find BFGs during Ao100, at least not early enough to really rely on. For normal games I don't always have juggler. In a game with the Halls of Carnage and juggler though, yeah, the BFG definitely works.


--- Quote from: Const on March 31, 2011, 15:39 ---Your math is wrong. You says that rel3 is 3 traits, and rel3 + MAC in 1 trait? So, you says that rel3>rel3+MAC???

--- End quote ---
Actually my math is fine, but my explanation sucks. What I meant was that now when you have ammochain, a plasma rifle and you fire that plasma rifle, seven traits are coming into use (SoBx2, TH, Finx2, WK and ammochain). If the requirements were changed to SoBx2, TH, Relx3, then when you fire that same plasma rifle only four traits are being used (Sobx2, TH and ammochain). The three levels of reloader don't work with ammochain and any weapon reloader does work for don't work with ammochain. So reloader just becomes dead weight for the majority of the game.

MaiZure:
This is a heated topic in the supporter section of the forums since Ammochain is getting nerfed in the next version. However...


--- Quote from: grommile on March 31, 2011, 11:33 ---Actually, the dependency on Whizkid is the single biggest reason why Ammochain is overpowered.

--- End quote ---

I disagree. The single biggest reason Ammochain is overpowered is Ammochain itself - you have infinite ammo and can therefore inflict infinite damage while the trait selection determines how quickly and safely you can deal that damage out. Many of the solutions proposed address this core problem. We'll see what actually happens soon...

Const:

--- Quote from: AStranger on March 31, 2011, 16:14 --- With ammochain you are trading accuracy (blocks EE) for infinite ammo.
--- End quote ---

Yes, lack of accuracy, but still power(SoaB), speed (Finesse) and mods. What to do after that? Take Ironman. With Iro(3), Ammochain and medpacks hoarding - you are immortal.


--- Quote ---This can be fixed with agility mods, but then you are sacrificing either damage or firing speed in the form of having less mod slots to work with.
--- End quote ---

Yes, but nothing is perfect. And, power mod - only 8% damage for plasma with SoaB 3, so it's not a big deal.


--- Quote --- This can be good sometimes, but bad others. I just feel the bad situations out weigh the good.
--- End quote ---

Don't see it. Single enemies = easy to kill, and multiple enemies = MAC shines (don't need to reload!)


--- Quote --- I don't often find BFGs during Ao100, at least not early enough to really rely on.
--- End quote ---

Yes Ao100 = no BFG, but - cells are a problem after dlevel 25 UV (without MAC, of course). No cells - useless plasma.


--- Quote --- If the requirements were changed to SoBx2, TH, Relx3, then when you fire that same plasma rifle only four traits are being used (Sobx2, TH and ammochain).
--- End quote ---

*Sigh* Again. If I have SoaB 3, Rel3, and no other traits, how much traits are being used?

raekuul:
Const, if you don't need to reload, then there's no benefit from reloader. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Game Hunter:
This is one of the big things that beta testers have been discussing, although it'd be silly not to consider non-supporter input.  Here's the list I compiled regarding possible changes in order to balance out Ammochain:

- Apply no-ammo to targeted enemies only
--- Apply no-ammo to chainfire attacks only
--- Allow for chainfire to persist as you move (full -> warming -> initial per step, firing increases as normal)
- Ammo is infinite but reloading is required
- Ammo is finite but reloading is not required
- Ammo cost is reduced (somehow)
- Increase ammo capacity per inventory space
- Alter the prereqs/blocks on MAc
--- Blocks: Remove SoG, add HR/Iro
--- Prereqs: Remove WK/(SoB/Fin), add Rel/TH

This is by no means a full list of possibilities, but it's something to get the mind going.

As far as MAc works as a whole, even now, it's hard to make use of it in a N! game (sans AoMC). You get no defensive traits for it, no Int, and infinite ammo really isn't all that useful when you have respawning ammo carriers. For easier difficulties (say HMP or UV), it's still hard to get going but the payoff is well worth it, especially since you can spray into the dark and kill a decent amount that way. MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem, whereas killing enemies quickly is more and more important (and so EE would be a nice trait).

Another big consequence of MAc, however, is that you don't have to carry ANY ammo, save some rockets, and still blow through the game as normal. Plenty of space for spare armor, med-packs, even consumables you'd normally not have room for. This is potentially more important than the infinite ammo itself, and so I believe that any balancing should reflect this part moreso.

I don't know for sure, but guessing from how he talks about MAc is sounds like Const has used it only on the easiest difficulties (ITYTD/HNTR). And yeah, it's pretty much a win button there. You'd be surprised how much lacking accuracy can bite you back though. I can tell you that Ammochain does NOT shine against multiple enemies because of this...at least when multiple enemies are visible at the same time. Unless we're talking about a horde (and really, why would you set yourself up like that) reloading is rarely a problem once your traits are in order. Furthermore, a quick trait addition (Fin -> Jug) will allow you double capacity at no extra time, and if 80 cells aren't enough to handle a rough situation, I don't know what is.

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