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Author Topic: Shotgun Build discussion.  (Read 13166 times)

spacedust

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2012, 03:47 »

Guys, please call Army of the Dead MAD, not AoD.AoD is usually either Angel of Death or Angel of Darkness -_-.

Lol and I was wondering what AoD was for a while. Stands that I missed the Army of Darkness reference :)

Ash is from Army of Darkness, not Army of the Dead, so you don't need this trait to roleplay him. I'd suggest juggler in such a build anyway, to switch between shotgun/chainsaw easiely. In any case, we need the Boomstick as a unique shotgun.

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ultimate26

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2012, 08:07 »

Hell if this is about ash should juggler be a main requirement for Mad?

FIN-JUG-REL combination of some sort!
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Klear

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2012, 08:14 »

I think Finesse (and thus juggler) is not allowed by MAD.

I'm going to try out some masterless "Ash" builds when I get home, though. I wanted to do that for some time, though this thread made me give it high priority =)

Edit: Hmm.. I'm thinking Juggler, Shottyman, Brute, Badass and Scavenger. Hehe... it may be bad... but it feels gooood.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:41 by Klear »
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Demetrious

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2012, 10:08 »

I believe AoD is all about the elephant gun and tactical shotty.

This was my suspicion as well. I scoffed at the Elephant Gun initially because it requires two power mods to do what an unmodded double shotty does already - but I didn't stop to factor that the elephant gun's normal shotgun blast is much better at range, still has the spread to help with Lost Souls and the like, and most vitally armor is only applied twice, not four times. That, and it seemed purpose-built for active-shotgun builds.

I just fiddled with the numbers really quick, and it seems the tactical shotty still comes out on top. With a fire time of 1.0 and a 5-round tube, it puts out 75 damage in 5.0 turns before you have to reload - which you can do with a single move if you've got shottyman. (For sake of argument let's assume your move speed is 1.20, which sounds about right for modded red armor + tactical boots.) That's with an average damage of 15 (according to the wiki.) Now lets look at the elephant gun, assuming you're using your 1.20 move to reload by hopping about. With an average damage of 22 and fire speed of 1.0 you can dish out 88 points of damage... in 8.8 seconds. 1.0 to fire, 1.20 to move and reload. If you fire three times you average 66 damage, time cost: 6.6 seconds. Clearly the Elephant Gun would shine for an active shottyman, but passive...?

I suppose you could try to factor in the dodge chance you'd get from moving, but considering how lackluster active defense seems to be (without Fireangel) on dedicated builds, I doubt our passive shottyman will do much better - and moving makes using tactical defense a lot harder, because sometimes you don't have enough cover to juke about like that.

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Even simple NORMAL shotgun with both will shine better than elephant with AoD. IMHO.

Certainly nothing to laugh at, for sure. Especially a shotty with a single mod.

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I'm going to try out some masterless "Ash" builds when I get home, though. I wanted to do that for some time, though this thread made me give it high priority =)

Edit: Hmm.. I'm thinking Juggler, Shottyman, Brute, Badass and Scavenger. Hehe... it may be bad... but it feels gooood.

"Masterless" is the key term here; it really opens up some potential... and mostly with the chainsaw. Shotguns big problem is armored enemies in late-game and shell scarcity; problems which MAD should address, but as discussed, doesn't.

Neither are problems for the chainsaw. Especially for the odd armored enemy that doesn't want to die - since that requires double-shotty blitzkrieg anyways, you may as well whip out the C-C-CHAINSAW and go to town. A piercing chainsaw is easy to make and does horrible, horrible things to anything you can get close to... and with Juggler, you can use rocket-jumps to close with thine foe very, very quickly. And leave again, if need be. I really need to try that!

I need to knock off a few Silver badges, which means winning a Challenge game or two. It wounds my pride to play on HNTR, AoMr is an RNG crap-shoot for the first five levels (and even then I don't know how to handle the new, improved Lost Souls and Pain Elementals,) and Fireangel is bugged... which leaves me no palatable options at this point. A crying shame AoSg disallows the chainsaw. It'd fit the spirit of the challenge so well. Real Man's Weapons. Knives, too.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2012, 13:25 »

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which you can do with a single move
Iirc that was fixed and now shottyman reloads only one shell for combat/tactical/assault.
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Demetrious

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2012, 21:59 »

Iirc that was fixed and now shottyman reloads only one shell for combat/tactical/assault.

Oh, good point. Haven't played a shottyman build in 9.9.6 yet.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2012, 06:49 »

Elephant guns like shell boxes. A lot.
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Demetrious

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2012, 00:28 »

Just got to Demios Lv. 1 with an "Ash" build on HMP.

Wow.
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Ashannar

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2012, 03:15 »

Can you expound on the 'wow?'
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spacedust

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2012, 03:37 »

A little OT, but I wonder if guaranteeing a power mod somewhere would throw off game balance too much. Far too many games I have hunted for just that elusive second power mod to make an elephant gun, only to be disappointed when I eventually have to chuck my lonely P-modded shotgun somewhere in Hell to make room for a spare armor or medpack.

As it is, you are guaranteed three A mods and one B mod from the CC and the Armory, with 2 lottery tickets waiting for you in the cubbyhole on the Armory. It would be nice if some other special level guaranteed a P mod because it is just about the most used mod in assemblies.

Maybe a new trait can be Tinker: you can attempt to change a mod in your inventory into another mod, with a 50% chance that it breaks and is destroyed. Or something like that.
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Pricklyman

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 04:26 »

Maybe a new trait can be Tinker: you can attempt to change a mod in your inventory into another mod, with a 50% chance that it breaks and is destroyed. Or something like that.

Replacement master for Scavenger yeah? :P
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spacedust

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 06:09 »

Replacement master for Scavenger yeah? :P

Yup, I had this thought after Game Hunter posted about possibly removing Scavenger and replacing with something else. That would be powerful even in non Ao100 games, I reckon. Though the downside does seem a little too much. Maybe you'll need to spend something to Tinker it with, maybe something like 1 stack of ammo and 1 medkit. Or something like that I reckon. Kinda like they are consumed in the process of your tinkering. Now this idea sounds like the Horadric Cube in D2...
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Motorheadbanger

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 12:06 »

It would be nice if some other special level guaranteed a P mod because it is just about the most used mod in assemblies.

Mortuary! Yay!
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Demetrious

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2012, 12:37 »

Can you expound on the 'wow?'

Thank you for the formal excuse to gush like a little girl with a new doll.

This build works. The immediate lesson is that Combat Shotguns are a completely different beast then Doubles, and Fin->Fin->Jug is to Combat Shotties as Rel->Rel->Sht is to Doubles. Furthermore, Juggler completely compensates for not having a Combat Shotgun until you find one (I didn't find any till the first level of Deimos.) It's costly in inventory space and time after-the-fact manually reloading, but being able to bust out shotgun after shotgun, instantly, with Juggler really saves your ass on early levels. That's really nice because getting past the first few levels is so often a huge pain-in-the-ass, waiting for the RNG to stop screwing you over till you've got a trait or two under your belt. Even better, Finesse is just as good as Reloader for early-game survival; since the guaranteed shotty on Phobos Entrance has a reload and fire time of 1.0, saving time in either category increases your effective damage output. Also, it gives you access to Whizkid early on as well, in case you stumble across some nice mods. On later levels, I know Juggler will replace Reloader - I found two Combat Shotguns on Deimos 1, giving me 5 extra shells on instantaneous tap when I need 'em.

Secondly, Rocket-Jumping is awesome. The 9.9.3 bug never let me play with it as much as I wanted, but now that I can, it's fantastic. I used it to fly through the hordes of Formers on the hard Chained Court and luckily landed right next to the Arena Master, who went down to my 'zerked Chainsaw with ease. The Hell Knights were pushovers. Most notably, the Lost Souls waiting in the wings on Phobos Anomaly are a real pain in the ass in this version. I figured I had their number this time; hit them with the Hell Staff and followed up with a double-shotgun blast... and yet I was still surrounded. Without a Phase device, I sat there, pondering my fate... and remembered the rocket-jump. Juggler gave me the launcher without suffering a Lost-Soul gangstabbing, and in one turn I blew up most of the Souls, flew all the way to the opposite door, opened it, stepped through, and closed it. Too bad, cacodemons! From there it was child's play to cornershoot the rest down.

Then I took on the Bruiser brothers. I just smacked them with Rockets until one got close to my corner, and I laid into him with the chainsaw, which worked pretty well. Then his brother came up behind him and started circling to attack me as well. 2v1 just wasn't happening... so I insta-switched and rocket-jumped away again, hitting them both with the blast. Then I just picked them off with rockets as they tried to close again.

So far I've gone Marine, Fin->Fin->Jug->Bru->Bad->Bru, which is working well. Since Finesse 2 and Juggler seem to cover all my shotgun-related needs so well, I'm seriously considering taking Berserker, then Vampyre (if I read this right, Vampyre gives +3 HP for any kill, not just ones made in melee,) both of which will mesh well with Badass (esp. another rank of it.) Or I could go with Hellrunner or Nails, I guess, to keep it masterless.

This is on HMP, no less, not a cake difficulty. I'm amazed at how flexible it is.

EDIT: The chainsaw as an instant secondary is great all-around. Many a time have I blasted a Baron point-blank, only to immediately eat an acid blast because the Baron was knocked back a few tiles. It's even worse with Arachnotrons. That's not a problem with the Chainsaw, and once I make it piercing it'll be even better.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 12:44 by Demetrious »
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shark20061

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2012, 12:45 »

...then Vampyre (if I read this right, Vampyre gives +3 HP for any kill, not just ones made in melee,)

Vampyre will only give health for melee kills.
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