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Author Topic: Nightmare advice?  (Read 12562 times)

Sylph

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2017, 19:35 »

I'm with you in being an extremely high-turn-count player.
I also hit an absolute wall of difficult getting into nightmare, to a point where I could confidently tackle almost any UV challenges (only pistols, masterless etc), but just found nightmare impossible to progress on.

I then found that the corpse respawning of nightmare happens in 'pulses', and the chance of any individual corpse coming back to live each pulse is related to the time you've spent on the level!

Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.

That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.


For a starting point, I'd recommend a quick read of the 'corpse disposal' section in my guide here:
http://sylph.me.uk/2%20games/doomrl/DoomRLGuide.txt

I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.
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horos

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2017, 08:24 »

Woah, this topic blew up quickly while I was busy!

First, i'd just like to post this here:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 horos, level 10 Hell Baron 2nd Lieutenant Scout,
 defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
 He survived 377516 turns and scored 379849 points.
 He played for 56 minutes and 1 second.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 473 out of 968 hellspawn. (48%)

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 4
  Levels completed : 1

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head
  UAC Star (bronze cluster)
  UAC Platinum Badge
  Longinus Platinum Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #########................................##################
  ########...............####...............#################
  #######.......####.....####.....####.......################
  ######........####.....####.....####........###############
  #####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
  ####..........####..............####..........#############
  ###............................................############
  ###....####............................####....############
  ###...&####............................####....############
  ###....####............................####....############
  ###....####...................%........####....############
  ###...........................X................############
  ####..........####..............####..........#############
  #####.........####.....####.....####.........##############
  ######........####.....####.....####........###############
  #######.......####.....####.....####.......################
  ########...............####...............#################
  #########................................##################
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 31/50   Experience 49250/10
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +9

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Brute            (Level 3)
    Berserker        (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Blademaster      (Level 1)

  Bru->Bru->Ber->HR->HR->Bru->MBm->Int->DM->Int->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   red armor [4/4] (85%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   Longinus Spear (8d8)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [2/2] (79%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shotgun (8d3) [1/1]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1]
    [b] ballistic vest [1/1] (84%)
    [c] chainsaw (4d7) (P)
    [d] shotgun shell (x28)
    [e] shotgun shell (x50)
    [f] shotgun shell (x50)
    [g] shotgun shell (x50)
    [h] shotgun shell (x50)
    [i] shotgun shell (x50)
    [j] small med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] large med-pack
    [p] agility mod pack
    [q] steel boots [1/1] (100%)
    [r] shell box (x100)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Bullet     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Melee      - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Shrapnel   - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    Acid       - internal 85%   torso 85%   feet 95% 
    Fire       - internal 85%   torso 95%   feet 85% 
    Plasma     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    80 former humans
    60 former sergeants
    29 former captains
    121 imps
    29 demons
    53 lost souls
    18 cacodemons
    8 hell knights
    12 barons of hell
    3 arachnotrons
    7 former commandos
    1 pain elemental
    17 mancubi
    9 arch-viles
    3 nightmare imps
    3 nightmare cacodemons
    15 nightmare demons
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 Angel of Death
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He cowardly fled the Arena.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  Level 12 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  He left level 17 as soon as possible.
  On level 17 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 17 he found the Longinus Spear!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  He left level 18 as soon as possible.
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  He came, he saw, but he left.
  On level 21 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  On level 24 he finally defeated the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You're going
 berserk! You need to taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind dies. Congratulations!
 You defeated the Spider Mastermind! Press <Enter>...
 Next!

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 52 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 36 of those were killed.
 1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 4 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 11 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 7 killed the bitch and survived.
 4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.

I tried not to rely on RNG, and I tried to keep track of turn counts as well. (100 turns for a berserk pack..? Or something around there, and 20 turns off a proc.) I did get pretty lucky with medpack drops at the end, since I was hovering around 3 for most of the game, and once got down to none.

Even when I got to the UC - even though i was invincible through that fight so I didn't waste any HP - the game wasn't won at that point. There were still a lot of really bad spawns (No armour, I picked up that red one on the very last level) where i'd be surrounded by 3 packs of 2xV with loads of sergeants, commandos, and mancubi (I hate those things so much!). So it relied on me trying to be flung around the room while berserk and try to get to the stairs ASAP (and perhaps getting a few kills along the way, if a group of helpless mobs are there and I can proc a berserk off them) using the scout stair sense. I think it would be a lot more difficult as a technician or a marine - being a scout reduced the number of double actions a lot, too.

There was one level - perhaps a hellish city? I'm not quite sure of the level type name - where there were a bunch of rooms surrounded by lava, so I took my time cornershooting and making sure to finish corpses into the lava. This didn't work with Vs very often considering how fast they are (And their melee attack hurts!), but luckily there was only around 5-6 on that level. It was worth it, as I got a nice supercharge and berserk right next to the stairs as my reward.

The anamoly was the most stressful part, for sure. I lost my berserk right before going into it, so I smacked a barrel next to the stairs (and got a proc, thank you Thomas!) and went down. I had the fortune of a phase device - not a rocket launcher - and it took me next to the bruiser brothers. From there it was a simple matter of gibbing them and getting some berserk turns, then going back and killing all the nightmare enemies in the doorway as they came out. Given that I found and used a phase device, i'm not entirely satisfied with how this run went. It feels like a fluke and not a step forward towards consistency.

That said though, a win is a win, no matter how undeserving, and i'm very thankful for all your help!

Quote from: Sylph
Nightmare is a game mode that mostly lends itself to fast play. 100% runs are a LOT harder than just charging your way through with hellrunner and berserker. Melee builds are also somewhat favoured.

That said, I play almost exclusively on nightmare, and I do it methodically and extremely patiently. Learning enough about corpse disposal and enemy interactions will get you to a point where you can near 50% win rates, but you really have your work cut out for you tactically. You need every trick in the book.

I'd also recommend you become very familiar with cornershooting, giftdropping (you already know these), tagging, and standing on corpses. Once you can get away with general combat on a level, you can start devising tactics for special levels. The anomoly, for example, is one I've found easiest by rocket jumping to the *left* (towards the starting room) after the ambush is triggered, fighting until you've led most of the monsters towards you and can't survive in the starting room any longer, and THEN using a phase device. There's much, much less chance of appearing in the middle of a bunch of enemies.

Thanks a ton for this! I'm glad that it's possible to play through N! methodically and patiently, and it's not required to rambo through every time (Er, sorry Sereg...). 50% win rate is consistant enough given that I reset the beginning level, so i'll aim for that - in the very, very long term.

I do have to dash for now, but i'll check out your guide. I gave the first bit a quick look over and it covers stuff in a well written and precise way - perfect for me to show some friends just starting out now. Once again, I appreciate it!
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2017, 10:38 »

Just keep in mind that some stuff in her guide seems outdated, but anything related to tactics and mechanics in general is all good. Congratulations on your victory.

I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 17:00 by Minaro »
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2017, 13:04 »

I thought I'd ask since I actually remembered, does anyone know what it means when the Mastermind flinches? I mean, mechanically in the game.
This means that Spidey took a hard enough damage from a single hit, and loses its next action. Note that since her speed is 150%, she can still act before you do, unless you are fast enough yourself.

Quote
... in his guide ...
Make it "in her guide" ;) (you probably couldn't have known, of course).
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Moonshine Fox

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2017, 01:22 »

So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.
Don't downplay your achievement. Winning on N! is very much an achievement, even if you with your skillevel think it's not.

Me I've personally only beaten it on HMP several times, but never on UV, so I'd say to me winning on N! seems impossible and very much worthy of achievement. ^^

Congratulations!

Also, Sylph, thanks a ton for the guide! I didn't know it existed, and even though some things in there are obviously out of date or downright missing, I did learn a lot from reading it. Especially things that I had a vague idea existed before, but never really understood till now.
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2017, 17:04 »

This means that Spidey took a hard enough damage from a single hit, and loses its next action. Note that since her speed is 150%, she can still act before you do, unless you are fast enough yourself.
Make it "in her guide" ;) (you probably couldn't have known, of course).
Huh, that's what I would've guessed off the top of my head - though that sounded borderline broken so I didn't really think that was it.

Nah, didn't know. Made a correction :P
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 23:56 »

Huh, that's what I would've guessed off the top of my head - though that sounded borderline broken so I didn't really think that was it.
IMHO, it's only "broken" for builds that can stunlock Spidey (i.e. can make her flinch consistently and fast enough).
The only builds that I can think of are Berserker builds with a chainsword at least (and those have to get in melee range first), and SoG5 Sharpshooters (SoG4 could probably work as well, with something better than a standard pistol, SoG3 would be too slow). Huge-damage weapons need to reload too often to be consistent.
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 03:29 »

(Eek!  Lots of replies!  I'll try to keep up!)  :o

One thing i've gained from the replies so far is that N! Games seem to depend on RNG factors - or massive feats of skill (Getting the RL from N! HA to do the hellgate, for example) to be completed with any amount of consistency. Is that correct? (Obviously skill helps, but i'm talking about doing very ~diamond level stuff on a regular basis to...essentially consistantly complete a ~platinum level standard win.)

Yeah, pretty much.  Being highly skilled will usually get you far in N!, but you'll still get screwed over by bad luck from time to time.  I'd say it takes a combination of skill and luck.

The way Berserker works is pretty consistant - the effect lasts for 20 turns and if you melee attack four times in a row you will definitely go berserk. Sometimes it's less than four, which depends on how many enemies are in LOS, I think.

As far as I can tell, LOS has nothing to do with it, and it's always four hits within a certain (short) period of time.  (If it ever took less than four, then it's probably counting an earlier hit that you didn't count)  I seem to recall that the literature for previous versions said that having enemies in your view contributed to the chance of going berserk, but I don't know if that was ever even the case.

This is amazingly helpful. I knew about the large damage proc of berserk - but not specific numbers, and the fact that it lasts 20 turns (This doesn't get a bonus on N! or such to like, 30 actions or what have you, right?) and procs after 4 attacks - even low damage ones - is really valuable...

The hits have to be at least 10 damage to be counted.  This means that if you have Brute 3, every hit will count because you're doing +9 damage, but with Brute 2, hitting with a combat knife has a chance to not do enough damage and fists will never do enough damage.  (Unless you're already berserk)

Hey, I've done that!

Yeah, be very careful with nukes, kids.

I'm pretty sure everyone has done that at one time or another.  :P

I'm not sure if instant actions count as a turn for them, I'll have to check that out later using Juggler, but I know that even 0.1 second actions use up a full turn.

Any zero time actions don't count as actions for invulnerability/berserk/etc.  You can juggle as much as you want without them running out.  :)

So, I managed to finally beat N! for the first time ever! Thanks for all your help, guys. It's not that much of an achievement, really, but it's a start.

Congrats on your N! win!  :D  And two Platinum badges!  Well done!  :D  And yeah, a Blademaster stair-dive is arguably one of the easier methods of winning a N! game, but still, it's quite an achievement!  :)

Haha, that's fair enough! I'm curious to know *how* he does it, but i'll take what I can get!

I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)
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MaiZure

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 06:54 »

I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)

I've still been waiting for an explanation on this one:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6149.msg53679.html#msg53679

Damageless, but...pulled an acid lever on level 3, which is way too early to have boots, env suit, or invulnerability. Or at least it was in that version. Otherwise pulling the lever results in instant damage on that turn

:)

I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic


« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 06:59 by MaiZure »
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 12:54 »

I've still been waiting for an explanation on this one:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6149.msg53679.html#msg53679

Damageless, but...pulled an acid lever on level 3, which is way too early to have boots, env suit, or invulnerability. Or at least it was in that version. Otherwise pulling the lever results in instant damage on that turn

:)

I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic

As you can see in that thread, I wondered about that too.  ;)  He says the lever was next to the stairs and he just flipped it, walked on to the stairs, and waited.  I wasn't even aware it was possible for levers to spawn next to stairs, but what do I know?  :P

And now I have to bite my tongue and stop talking about this because I might get in trouble too.  :P
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Minaro

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 17:01 »

IMHO, it's only "broken" for builds that can stunlock Spidey (i.e. can make her flinch consistently and fast enough).
The only builds that I can think of are Berserker builds with a chainsword at least (and those have to get in melee range first), and SoG5 Sharpshooters (SoG4 could probably work as well, with something better than a standard pistol, SoG3 would be too slow). Huge-damage weapons need to reload too often to be consistent.
I don't know, wouldn't basically any melee build with a Ripper be able to pull that off?

Just remembered something else I've been wondering about for a while, how much damage does Lost Souls actually deal? I just remember checking the wiki long ago and upon seeing the numbers there just said "BS". Most likely those numbers are from before the update that changed their AI and stats.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 17:17 by Minaro »
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horos

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 22:18 »

Been quite busy, and wow this topic has exploded, haha!

Quote from: Moonshine Fox
Me I've personally only beaten it on HMP several times, but never on UV, so I'd say to me winning on N! seems impossible and very much worthy of achievement. ^^

Good luck on your UV win! I personally found HMP harder then UV. You don't get any of the bonuses (Extra ammo) and Hell Knights, the main obstacle, can be gift dropped and cornershot, whereas from what I remember of HMP it's more lower monsters that spawn, which are more difficult. It's funny what being a camper does to you!

I appreciate the sentiment of your post though, and I would reflect it back at you and say never give up. I'm sure you'll get there and easily become a better player then me in no time.


Quote from: Tormuse
Yeah, pretty much.  Being highly skilled will usually get you far in N!, but you'll still get screwed over by bad luck from time to time.  I'd say it takes a combination of skill and luck.

I see, that's good to know. I feel slightly better then-

Quote
Congrats on your N! win!  :D  And two Platinum badges!  Well done!  :D  And yeah, a Blademaster stair-dive is arguably one of the easier methods of winning a N! game, but still, it's quite an achievement!  :)

Shush! I worked that out! :p

I would have attempted another run but fear of the anomaly is holding me back.

Quote
I have theories, but nothing I should probably post publicly.  ;)

Quote
I better shut up before moderators get on me about ataying on topic

Actually, in my original post I did ask about how people perform stuff like this (and i'm still curious!):

Quote
As an extension question - how do you complete no damage/speed challenges? Now, obviously you can kite the Angel of Death around the UC - that's no big deal if you have enough movespeed and combat knives (Or you are confident in timing your steps and attacks). And taking on enemies 1v1 damageless is also suitably easy given you have some form of cover or high movespeed. But how are you supposed to do this with multiple enemies?

Now, obviously we can't all be Neo, er, TwoDev, but I don't understand in what way he (and others! Credit where credit is due) performs some of the challenges he does - and in very little time, at that! A recent AoMs YAAM of mine gave me the line " He played for 2 hours, 35 minutes and 8 seconds.", and i'd consider that fairly fast!

In what way do you go about doing challenges like this? Things like the higher level gatekeeper badges, clearing the mortuary without damage, etc.

I understand it is supposed to be difficult, but I don't understand what basic tactics or the method you would go about doing these kinds of things. Having random creatures fireball you out of the blue happens to me more often then not unless I camp - which doesn't work on these kinds of challenges. And the Gatekeeper just seems flat out impossible, given i've never gone to the bruiser brothers without a significant paddling.

So I wouldn't really call it off topic, technically. But of course, that's for the mods to decide, even if it is part of the original post!
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 23:55 »

I don't know, wouldn't basically any melee build with a Ripper be able to pull that off?
You're right, even if this means a heavy trait investment for WK2 (2 traits if you're a Technician, 4 if you're not), and a bit of luck with finding the mods.
Quote
Just remembered something else I've been wondering about for a while, how much damage does Lost Souls actually deal? I just remember checking the wiki long ago and upon seeing the numbers there just said "BS". Most likely those numbers are from before the update that changed their AI and stats.
Again you're correct. I updated the Wiki page.
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Tormuse

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 15:40 »

Actually, in my original post I did ask about how people perform stuff like this (and i'm still curious!):

*Tormuse contemplates how to reply to this*
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Deathwind

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Re: Nightmare advice?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2017, 00:07 »

*Tormuse contemplates how to reply to this*
Tormuse, you have videos showing how you do this stuff...
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